Hello, when the list first came people reacted it very differently now that we have had few tournaments everywhere in the world since the restricted list started, I would like to know what peoples opinions about it are.

is it opening more design base for deckbuilding?

does it make the tournament enviroment healthier?

are all the cards in there still need to be on this list and should we get more cards now on this list?

Has it made it easier to read your opponents play after he has revealed what his/her restricted card is? if so has this made the game feel better or worse?

I have liked the design base for decks that it has opened, but this might just be because I'm allowed to play pyromancers cache OOH to give better draw to decks that previously lacked it. I would say that my playing expirience has been more fun after the introduction of the restricted list. Thou I have to say it has changed my playstyle alot if I see a Martell player playing narrow escape since then I know that I don't have to fear VB in that game anymore, but I really can't say if its bad or worse since my opponent can make same kind of decisions based on my restricted card. I'm still not sure about the furies on this list as we are currently getting very powerful new plot cards. In my opinion currently the only card I would like to see added to this list would be BotS as we currently have kind of martell heavy enviroment and it could really make some diverse into the martell decks as the deckbuilder needs more thinking of do I want to ignore some challenges or kill str2 characters.

The restricted list made bara uncompetitive in the short run.

There are definitely some cards that are currently out that I think need to be on the list. There are also a few cards coming out soon that I think will need to be on it as well.

I think its not the worst thing ever, but I wish they would have had the foresight to find a different way to deal with it.

I don't think Baratheon is dead. I have two Baratheon decks and have been playing a lot on OCTGN and they have very, very good win/loss records against a variety of decks. So few Bara players have been going to these regionals because they're convinced the house isn't competitive, that I think we don't have a real picture of how it can perform.

I don't like the "tip off" it gives my opponent once they see what restricted card I'm running, but otherwise I don't have any major heartburn over the restricted list.

I do like the fact it allows some cards to be legal that would possibly otherwise be banned (or remain banned, in the case of "Pyromancer's Cache").

Haven't really seen it create the design variety some had hoped it would. In my experience, it has just shifted what cards are in every deck to different cards now.

ASoIaFfan said:

+1 to this.

I used to see the same cards in every deck. Now I see a new set of the same cards in every deck.

+2. I definitely see the same set of cards. People don't play the fury plots anymore (except Bara, but I didn't see much Bara at regionals). It would be interesting to see what would happen if the restricted list were expanded a bit, and have the restriction be 2-3 cards from the list.

~ I also propose a Sansa list, where if you include those cards in your deck build you start with +1 card in your hand before set-up, or 1 power on your house card, or something like that. On this list might be such classics as Ascetic Follower, Son of a King, and Secret Hideout.

Stasis said:

I don't think the majority of Regional players are "House X" players. They take the deck that gives them the best option to win. The majority of Baratheon builds were not equal to or better than Martell/Summer, Lannister/Control(trait manip, kneel), Greyjoy/Choke, etc. Tegaryen/Summer saw a resergence because of the box and it's a Ned favorite, but the box wasn't enough to put them over the top.

What was killed was Noble/knight rush in Baratheon, specifically the win by turn 2 or go home variety. No other build was hit hard by the FAQ. Narrow Escape, the Fury, and Val were already on the list pre FAQ.

Back on topic, The Restricted List did it's job of "opening up the deckbuilding options". In a world of min/maxing, you will always "see the same cards in every deck". A Restricted List can only change what those cards are, not change that phenomenon from occurring. What you need is cards that reward you for having more variety or penalize you for the absence of variety.

I think Martell needs some more members on the the Restricted List before GenCon. My candidates are Oberyn's Guile, Game of Cyvasse, and Burning on the Sand. Right now they only have to choose between VB and the Fury plot, which really isn't a choice.~ I think it's time Martell had to make tough choices like the other top houses. They only dominated the field the entire Regional Season

I really like the restricted list in concept and (so far) execution. The rumors of Bara's demise are greatly exaggerated. Bara winter, Bara Shadows, Bara Maesters, and Asshai rush are all very very good right now. Moving forward and watching the comp environment shift towards choke leave Bara is an excellent position. Also, Inn of the Kneeling Man is insane in Bara, giving it probably the best location control in the game via Saan and the most resilience to Lannister via Masey's Hook and Marya.

Stasis said:

Seriously though, Bara actually did fairly well at regionals considering how many people played it. If you compare the # of Bara decks with the # of Bara players making top 4, the ratio isn't bad at all. In contrast, Targ is much worse - high representation but low rewards. I know the "common view" on this forum is that people didn't take Bara *because* they thought it was unlikely to win. That's probably true of the top competitive players who are always looking to win. But for the rest of us, including most of the non-Martell players, winning wasn't the only thing on our minds and we weren't really expecting to win with Targ, GJ, or Stark (though I guess I did sneak a win in with a Stark deck ). So rather than say "Bara wasn't played because it was assumed to be uncompetitive," I think a better conclusion would be that Bara just has fewer house-loyal players than Greyjoy, Stark or Targ. And for the record, at least one regionals was won by a Bara player, which is more than GJ or Targ.

On the topic of the thread more generally, I don't think the restricted list has worked perfectly, but I definitely think it's much better than it would have been. I saw *much* more deck building variety and many different card choices than I would have. In large part, I think that has to do with the restricting of two cards - Fear of Winter (which I now see only in GJ winter decks) and Narrow Escape (which I saw a bit and played, but wasn't as ubiquitous). While the restricted list didn't really disrupt who was on top (Martell and Lanni continue to dominate), the list brought them down a notch so that a good player could pick up a Bara deck, Stark deck, or even build a completely different sort of Lanni/Martell deck than the norm and still do well.

I like the Restricted List and think it has ben egenrally executed very well. it was clear that there were quite a few dengenrate combos with NE late last winter, and the Faer Turn 1 opening was limiting deck design greatly. Clearly I have a major issue with TLS on teh list - but apart from that, i am behind the list in both concept and execution and look for it to be something of a living document - with cards coming on and off as the environemnt changes.

Equally clealry - this regional Baratheon got hit the hardest by the list - and only after FAQ 3.2 Choosing between one of the House's top three characters, their Fury Plot, supplemntal draw with Val and the weakening of Valar via Narrow Escape was a tremendous hit. Water under the bridge now.

I also agree with kpmccoy that martell doesn't have any hard choices vis-a-vis the list at the moment. They give up the sheer power of Turn 1 Fear and lose some of the silly combos with NE - but they keep VB. Its tiem for more of their silliness to go on the list and see what choices they ahve to make.

Ideally, BoTS, Cyvasse and the other one woudl get restricted the week before GenCon.

I agree with kpm that Martell does seem to need a bit more restricted list "love," as VB or Fury (or Val or Narrow Escape) isn't much of a choice, although I did see at least one Martell deck at the Iowa City regional (Luke's) that did not run VB or Fury as its restricted card.

I also agree with Shives; while many Baratheon builds may have been restricted out of existence, I think Baratheon as a house is just fine, although I never thought of the rise of Greyjoy/choke as leaving them in such a good position. If they are a good counter to Greyjoy/choke, then I think it fits that they're still somewhat vulnerable to Targaryen/burn, and that Targaryen/burn (at least the Dragon version) is vulnerable to Greyjoy/choke.

A good points, and a good discussion (great to see Stag Lord posting again!!!).

I think Bara is fine, you just don't see a ton of people enjoy playing them - mainly due to their basic house strengths. Bara just isn't usually played by the high-level players, and I disagree a bit with someone who stated that people will play whatever house will give them the best chance to win. It would take something REALLY cool to get me away from either Martell or Lanni no matter what their card base is. ~Luckily they always have awesome card bases!!! I like their characters and house strengths *shrug* I see a lot of people, even at GenCon, play the house I have seen them play for five straight years.

Back to the list, I love it. Obviously it opens a can of worms to endlessly dispute what is on it (Compelled? Really?) and not on it (I agree, Burning Sands should be on it - Game of C is just too much of a Martell historic card to me to restrict it, return to hand is their control strength and then they wouldn't have one card that could really do it). But overall, it has created an elegant solution rather than the bannings/erratta hammer. It is fun to see what people choose IMHO.

TLS and Val in the same is just silly given the powerlevel of the current environment. I also do not find VB to be particularly oppressive given that we played in ccg era where first snow was in every deck.

It could be that we simply don't see the game being played in the same way since we live in different areas, however, I think moving forward you will see that the power Bara has in its random discard engines (Shadows Iron Throne, Zealot) and the cheap holy crests (for power of faith and confession) will scale very very well with upcoming sets. The house just isn't "Play noble renown dudes and attack" any more. Its a mid-range control power house that has the best answers to Maesters, kneel, choke, and uber draw. (The Black Cells, Stand, Seat of Power and Asshai reducers, Iron Throne, Zealot and Holy Crests)

Add in Cressen, Eastwatch-by-the-sea, Shadows Margery and Pylos and you have maybe the best toolbox house in the game.

ShivesMcShivers said:

I think I have to agree - a toolbox house that retains the capabilities to rush for power is no small trick. Huh, interesting combo: Pylos + Fanatic + Lady Genna + Power of Faith. You could always force a shadows card to be discarded.

Danigral said:

Wow nobody else wanted to run with the Sansa List, im surprisingly intrigued

is there a list of the worst cards in the game? or cards that seemingly have no use?

jack merridew said:

I love it as a concept.

Anything that would get more of the unused and Nedly cards out of shoeboxes and into tournament level decks is a good thing in my book.

However, as currently imagined, the Sansa list would just see players running 59 card killing machines (as usual), plus one copy of Son Of A King (/whatever) for the free card/power. Alternatively, depending on the rules, a 56 card rush-deck killing machine, plus four random rubbish cards in order to give them a massive starting hand to splurge onto the table.

ShivesMcShivers said:

Silly - I grant you. However, also easily disruptable and controllable - given the power level of the current environment. I'd be more persuaded if the combo had seen play in actual tournament settings and been shown to be degenerate. Exploitable control applications sure get plenty of time in the environment before steps are taken

Seconded.

I admit to being a little bit disappointed that I didn't at least get to see Mr Storm thrashing the crap out of the top tables for a couple of months.

While the Restricted List may well have been the right place for him, he wasn't a dog who got to have his designated time in the sun. That felt kind of wrong.