Jake yet again said:
Final Battle cards. End of everything. Problem solved.
It is a variant. Not everybody is able or willing to use it.
The problem was that FFG was very careful to prevent sanity and stamina overload for final combats up until Kingsport.
Tibs said:
Wow. This is honestly fascinating. Watching you guys go back and forth...one wonders how often the great scientific breakthroughs of our age had similar happy-fun-ball discussions before their discovery.
But I don't get why you just don't take the ARBITRARY statement above (which isn't printed on my Rhan-Tegoth sheet no matter how closely I look) and extend it to the other three AOs that are constantly being abused by later-expansion cards. (I mean, it's almost a game in and of itself now: how many ways can you find to break Yig in Final Battle?) One little clause--CANNOT BE PREVENTED--and suddenly EVERY card is safe.
I know you hate this, Tibs, but I keep forgetting why. You accept it on Rhan; why not the other three?
jgt7771 said:
But I don't get why you just don't take the ARBITRARY statement above (which isn't printed on my Rhan-Tegoth sheet no matter how closely I look) and extend it to the other three AOs that are constantly being abused by later-expansion cards. (I mean, it's almost a game in and of itself now: how many ways can you find to break Yig in Final Battle?) One little clause--CANNOT BE PREVENTED--and suddenly EVERY card is safe.
Yep ;')
But as a matter of principal, universal application is desired.
Avi_dreader said:
...I'm not sure I know what that means. Do you mean a rule that must apply to all Ancient Ones?
Um...why? Every time we all sit down after yet another discovery of a dozen cards working together to make a chump out of a cosmic horror, the first thing we do is start tossing cards into the fire. It's like Magic tournaments all over again: card banned, card banned, card banned...and only because someone was clever enough to determine a great combination within the confines of the game itself. Magic never had a choice but to eliminate the cards, because that's all they had.
WE have more options, because, again, EVERY time this comes up, it's the same three guys: Yig, Hastur, Ithaqua. (Having already closed the Roland-Nyarlathotep loophole long ago.) So as one side of the scale gets heavier and heavier with a new card combo every other month, the other side of the scale NEVER has more than those three AOs. And yet we all still refuse to take the path of least resistance. (Is that it? Is it far too entertaining to keep Yig, Hastur, and Ithaqua as card-combo martyrs?)
"Stamina or Sanity losses as a result of an Ancient One Attack cannot be prevented in any way." As far as I can tell, all this does to the other 21 AOs is make Y'Golonac and maybe Cthugha a tad more dangerous. (Like they needed any help.) Is that universal enough?
It's not just prevention of damage that's the issue, though. Anything that can reliably heal you in final fight has the same effect, so long as you had a few stamina and sanity to start with. All the single items that do that (e.g. Healing Stone) are discarded - but combinations of items that can do that are not.
Carolyn Fern gets the Seven Cryptical Books of Hsan (-1 sanity to cast spells), the Heal spell (1 sanity, +1 modifier, heal 1 stamina for each success), and the Ancient Language skill (+1 success to one spell check)
Yig attacks, and she loses a stamina and a sanity. She then recovers a sanity using her ability, and casts Heal, using Seven Cryptical Books to remove the sanity cost, and Ancient Language to guarantee at least one success, to regain a stamina (or several)
Gotcha. Then add Heal to the list of Spells that cannot be cast in Final Battle. Almost all the healing combos seem to bottleneck with that Spell.
A rather amusing trend I'm noticing here is the inexorable push to forbid ALL Investigator Special Abilities from being used in Final Battle. First Jenny couldn't use hers, then Roland, then Michael and Harvey, so now why don't we just shut down Carolyn, Vincent, and Lily? Techincally, they can only use their abilities against five specific Ancient Ones anyway. So why don't we revive the idea from long long ago that Upkeep Abilities really make little thematic sense being used during combat, even if it's a longer than usual combat?
jgt7771 said:
I know you hate this, Tibs, but I keep forgetting why. You accept it on Rhan; why not the other three?
Because Rhan's potential for damage gets lower as the target's stamina gets lower. It's possible that the maximum damage on Rhan's attack is 1, if the investigator's current stamina is 1.
I like investigator abilities. I like how Vincent and Michael can survive a little longer against Ithaqua. What else is the ability for? But the problem with Rhan isn't the result of a weird expansion combo; it's with Rhan himself. No other expansions or odd combos are involved. This should have been caught in the design phase.
Tibs said:
...for the rest of the entire game? Okay, never mind that.
So in order to preserve that "survive a little longer" against one or two particular AOs, you're going to dig out every single wacky pile of cards that makes it "survive indefinitely" and bonfire them, just to hold on to the nostalgia of those base-game-only games?
Part of me is riveted to your crusade, wondering when and how you will ultimately be satisfied. The other part of me is mildly terrified, because FFG listens to you. So when YOU say, "Hey! Roland breaks Nyarlathotep!", I am now no longer able to use Roland (legally) against ANY Ancient One. Because 1 or 2 Clues just wasn't that big a deal against 22 other Ancient Ones. Neither is the Terrible Old Man on about 40+ other Investigators, but you're probably going to get it banned too.
So I do find it perhaps a touch ominous that you're going to hold on to the "virus" (Michael, Carolyn, etc.) while constantly putting down the "symptoms" because it doesn't jive with how YOU play.
First, it should be noted that Rhan-Tegoth got clarified before Innsmouth hit the shelves, and I wasn't one of the guys who spotted the exploit.
Didn't you show me an "indefinite" scenario that does not require Kingsport and that hinges on the use of an inconspicuous base-game spell? It was pretty much that discovery that began to turn me. I don't want to ban freaking base game items. I don't want to revise investigators and ancient ones—particularly those from the base game. You could always simply disallow clue-gain during final combat with AOs that attack your clues, allowing Roland to gain clues during other combats. And while you complain about having a single investigator's ability banned for all AOs, you proposed that many others get the same treatment.
I think Terrible Old Man and Herbert West are banned currently. But, I suppose, if you're using Epic Battle, you don't need to worry about banning anything. Well, so long as you observe the fact that AO attack-cancelers don't work on "End of Everything" 
In my view, AOs are most important, and should never be changed. Investigators should only be changed if the only other solution would be to change the AO. After that comes small cards, which are of least importance because they are not "characters." They are not actors in the Arkham Horror play: they are the props. Actors have an identity: props are for show (and can be broken).
And while the base game, all on its own, has no problems with indefinite final combats, the problem must not be with the base game, so I hold base game small cards above expansion cards.
That pretty much summarizes my feelings and motivations. So long as I have Epic Battle, there will never truly be an indefinite combat. But I do not want Epic Battle to be the patch that solves everything, especially when not every player has access to it.
First, it should be noted that Rhan-Tegoth got clarified before Innsmouth hit the shelves, and I wasn't one of the guys who spotted the exploit.
Yeah, and I continue to thank those people for burying such an integral revelation on the third page of a SPOILER thread. 
And while you complain about having a single investigator's ability banned for all AOs, you proposed that many others get the same treatment.
Heh. Sorry about that. I suppose my "facecious" audial filter isn't coming through. Darn forums always screwing up my tone of voice. 
What I was trying to say is that this process keeps whittling down. First this guy, then that card, then...oops, another problem. Okay, now this card, and that card, and...wow. How many cards do we have to thrash in order to preserve one guy's ability against one Ancient One? Better to just whack the guy's ability completely. That'll save time.
I don't want that either, but is banning Mystic Gift (a Skill that is just fine as it is) permanently any better, just because with 4 other cards (not all so easy to find without METAGAMING) it breaks ONE original Ancient One? I would think the answer is no.
So we can't ban the Ability, and we can't ban the Skill, and we can't add text to the Ancient One, and...well, I guess we have to start making elaborate House Rules. Except then there's the possibility that I'm going to have to start playing with THOSE "House Rules".
See, I don't think there IS a fix for these situations BECAUSE of all the conditions you're clinging to. (Because if there was, after a couple years now, we'd have HAD one already.) And yes, I mostly ignore all this stuff because I don't think it's any problem anymore. Partly because I bought the Epic Battle "Patch"...
***Dear anyone who has these problems...buy Kingsport. It solves the problems. If you refuse to buy Kingsport...then COPE.***
...partly because when I don't play Epic Battle, I NEVER SEE these Yu-Gi-Oh-like Card Combos.
But you, Tibs, you have the ear of the company. You've seen the Pnakotic Fragments of the Phantom FAQ. If they start giving any kind of credibility to your method of thought, I'm afraid things will change in ways that are unnecessary. What if FFG decides to axe healing abilities during Final Combat, just to solve all the potential conflicts? (Cuz they don't always do things the way you want, obviously.) You'll rant that they opened the Ark, but now it's in the rulebook.
Right, outside of Epic Battle there seems to be no perfect solution. The designers should have caught these potential problems before release (it may seem complex but it's not: anything that heals sanity or stamina or gets you clues needs to be evaluated. That's it.). But, it's clearly too late for "should."
I don't mind searching for exploits (it's kind of fun). But banning seems to be the quickest way to solve problems on the fly.
While Epic Battle is truly the ultimate "patch" for this kind of thing, some house rules that address infinity-battle could be in order for those without it. Didn't I suggest something where failing the skill check in an AO's attack causes the first player to lower his max sanity or stamina? That would be an appropriate fix, and would even lay into smaller groups a bit more (which is good). Plus you could keep around Heal, Mystic Gift, Ancient Language, Mythos Lore, Herbert West, Terrible Old Man, Granny Orne, Changed, Mystic Knights, and all that other collateral that was put up on the block.
As much as I enjoy all-expansion games, I don't approve of the notion that, "well, if you had bought Kingsport, then you wouldn't have this problem!" I'm sure FFG doesn't hold that position, but geez. I'd like a little more scrutiny.
I must say this has been an interesting read. I have been playing this game since its release and have never really ran into any of these issues. Though it is true that we do use Epic Battles, and with the advent of MH have started all-in games. I dunno if its really all that big of an issue, as has been noted your only going to run into this issue under a very specific set of circumstances that it seems you have to be trying for in order to have come to pass. In our group we have never banned or limited anything, we do it all randome, sometimes we get the A-Team and make short work of things, other times we get the rejects and are pasted from one end of Arkham to the other. For us at least that's just part of it. Every so often we do end up with something really kewl, but for us that just makes for a memorable game more than anything else.
jgt7771 said:
Gotcha. Then add Heal to the list of Spells that cannot be cast in Final Battle. Almost all the healing combos seem to bottleneck with that Spell.
A rather amusing trend I'm noticing here is the inexorable push to forbid ALL Investigator Special Abilities from being used in Final Battle. First Jenny couldn't use hers, then Roland, then Michael and Harvey, so now why don't we just shut down Carolyn, Vincent, and Lily? Techincally, they can only use their abilities against five specific Ancient Ones anyway. So why don't we revive the idea from long long ago that Upkeep Abilities really make little thematic sense being used during combat, even if it's a longer than usual combat?
I say that we should just skip final battle. Instant devouring! Muahahahahaha!
The "upkeep length" argument is a good one. Any spell or ability marked with Upkeep activation can only be used for one Upkeep phase for the entire battle—you have to choose!
On the other hand, this does not affect Michael or Harvey. Nor, technically, Lily or Leo. Or Mandy. Where do we decide to draw the line?
And then, how do these rules apply to dual-color cards?
Tibs said:
And then, how do these rules apply to dual-color cards?
Hah, yes. That's true. Michael McGlen with Earl Sawyer meets Ithaqua in Leng. The Ancient One hasn't awakened, so Earl Sawyer is kept, and it's an easy fight. Epic Battle isn't used in dual-colour combats anyway.
(On the other hand, the consequence is "get a seal, probably losing some items in the process" not "win the game", so it's no big deal if there's an exploit there)
Well actually, the ancient one has "awakened" in dual-colored cards. Against Ithaqua you still have to roll to lose your stuff, and any "discard when AO awakens" stuff is lost, including Earl Sawyer.
But if McGlen had Herbert West, that would be another story. Which is why he has to be a "discard."
It's not game-breaking if there's a no-lose scenario, but it's still highly uncomfortable.
Tibs said:
I've said my piece, and I'll sit down and be quiet after this.
Somehow, that's the difference. You guys see an odds-breaking combination of circumstances (Michael 1/48 x Dr. West 1/? x Dual Color Card 1/? x being in Leng ?/?) and think, "That's not right! There's supposed to be a fight!", whereas if that combo actually happened to me, I would laugh my ass off and rip Ithaqua in half, because sometimes the game GIVES YOU A BREAK.
I was there the day that player posted that he had just wasted Yig in one shotgun blast with Joe and Mandy, and I watched as you guys all threw a rod claiming "broken"...and I wondered why everyone was so bent on defeating the 1-out-of-X when there was still (X-1)-out-of-X kinda balancing the whole situation WAY in the Game's favor. You really spend a lot of energy trying to make sure that every Final Battle has the exact same challenge every time when sometimes it's really okay for the Investigators to happen upon a rare MacGuffin that even the Ancient One didn't count on.
As silly a metaphor as this is...sometimes the farmboy can actually drop a proton torpedo down a small thermal exhaust port just below the main port, even if it is only two meters wide. I find it bewildering that many just can't enjoy those odds.
jgt7771 said:
As silly a metaphor as this is...sometimes the farmboy can actually drop a proton torpedo down a small thermal exhaust port just below the main port, even if it is only two meters wide. I find it bewildering that many just can't enjoy those odds.
Bah, two meters is frigging huge 
! Assuming the torpedo wasn't like 1.99 meters in diameter.
jgt7771 said:
I was there the day that player posted that he had just wasted Yig in one shotgun blast with Joe and Mandy, and I watched as you guys all threw a rod claiming "broken"...and I wondered why everyone was so bent on defeating the 1-out-of-X when there was still (X-1)-out-of-X kinda balancing the whole situation WAY in the Game's favor.
I think I actually laughed when I read about the Yig thing. Clearly, I think that final combats can be kind of un-thematic once in a while, but you know, this was a single-investigator Joe clue-shotgunning Yig. That kind of combat was designed to be an embarrassment. Which is why I adopted the clue-limit rule and play it as official. It sort of is anyway.
And, sure, maybe on the rare occasion, things go completely right for you and you're well stacked to have a very good chance of beating down the AO. But even the best chance should never be 100%, you know? I suppose for Dual-Color combats it's not all that huge of a deal, but when the chances of you winning the game become certain, there's a bit of a problem. Well, you do know what I mean, because we talk about this a lot.
Dam... a 2m target is pretty freaking small, especially when you're shooting at it from a ship that's traveling at pretty staggering speeds. Tell me you've seen Star Wars.
Dam said:
jgt7771 said:
As silly a metaphor as this is...sometimes the farmboy can actually drop a proton torpedo down a small thermal exhaust port just below the main port, even if it is only two meters wide. I find it bewildering that many just can't enjoy those odds.
Bah, two meters is frigging huge ! Assuming the torpedo wasn't like 1.99 meters in diameter.
Pffft. It's no bigger than a womp rat!
Tibs said:
Yeah, I know what you mean. And from a "game theory" standpoint, I agree: no game ever anywhere should be "impossible to lose". But Arkham is such a huge malleable beast that the percentages, especially with numerous expansions, for...well, ANY given happenstance approach fairly small numbers. And for the circumstances that are fun to theorize as those already mentioned, the percentages are asymptotically zero.
Considering the...I don't know if "difficulty" is the right word, since you guys are thoroughly enjoying trying to jury-rig fixes to this stuff...it's not really "difficult" if it's a hobby ... Considering the elaborate effort to attempt to circumvent every chance of such a 100% occurring, I'm inclined to believe that an ALMOST zero percent chance of a 100% victory is within acceptable parameters. (Shaddap, Engineer!)
I just thought of a time when it's acceptable to have a 100% win chance against an AO in final combat:
The AO has one success left until it's beaten. An investigator has a refreshed "Endurance" skill, and it's his turn to attack.
The funny part is, one time I had almost all of the above conditions. The discrepancy? It wasn't his turn to attack! I reached for the Epic Battle card, and... it was "The End of Everything."
All right! I'm off to play another all-in game.
jgt7771 said:
I had no idea that would be so prophetic...
(You rock, FFG.)