I figured with the number of rules lawyers we seem to have present on these forums, an official ruling would be wise. We all already know that when assigning damage we have to take damage cancellers on enemy units into consideration before applying damage to an enemy capital. But, there is no official ruling about damage multipliers! So, I asked just so that we would have an official answer and no need for any kind of debate. It's common sense, but unfortunately necessary. Here goes...

Rule Question:
I have a question about damage multipliers. In particular Bloodletter, if I attack a zone that has two defenders who have 2 Hitpoints each and I have units with total combined Hammers of 4 do I assign 1 damage to each unit since each one turns into 2 damage and kills each unit and then 2 damage to the capitol, or do I still have to assigned 2 damage each which turns into 4 damage each. I know that I have to take into account damage cancellation when assigning damage but nothing is mentioned on multipliers. Thank you for your time.

Rule answer: You take multipliers into account provided it multiplies the damage when it is assigned. Since the Bloodletter doubles the damage as you assign it, you can assign one damage to one unit and have it double into two damage (thereby fulfilling the requirement of assigning enough damage to destroy it), assign another damage to the second unit and have it double into two damage, and then assign the last two damage to the capital (which will then become 4 damage).

--
Lukas Litzsinger
Associate LCG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]

I think he got the part about doubling the damage on the capital wrong though. The card clearly states damage against UNITS is doubled. It doesn't say anything about damage against the capital being doubled.

"double all damage assigned to units as it is being assigned"

pretty clear.

He probably just grabbed the 'double damage assigned' part and ran with it. Can't blame him for not memorising all of the cards.

Thanks for the clarification, will definitly come in handy.

Dear Sir,

then if I have 2 Bloodletter in play, does it make 4 times of damage? or not matter how many Bloodletter in play, it always make double damage?

LiouKen said:

no you don`t multiply that damage by 4, the situation is similar to having tyrion and white lions on the table, you don`t get to redirect 2 damage. Same you don`t double the dame that has already beed doubled.

Just to add to this, here is another explanation Lukas gave that directly answers LiouKen's question:

The Bloodletter automatically doubles the damage being assigned as it is assigned, so once you assign a single damage to a unit then it is immediately doubled. This does work on non-combat damage, since you still assign it before applying it.

When there is more than one Bloodletter on the table, you use the rule for constant effects that says you always apply the net value. So if you are assigning one damage and have two Bloodletters on the table, then each one will double the damage, leaving you with a total of 3 damage being assigned (1 damage + [1 damage + 1 damage] = 3).

Put into a mathematical equation where X is the number of damage being assigned, Y is the number of Bloodletters and Z is the total damage assigned: (X + [X]Y)=Z . So three Bloodletters and a Plague Bomb would be (1 + [1]3 = 4) and (2 + [2]3=8) and (3 + [3]3=12).

I'm adding it to the rules summary now.

Dear Entropy42

I think this explanation is more confuse than last one to me, because it's double assign damage, not plus assign damage.

Basicaly, the bloodletters are worded rather awkwardly then, but in essence, their effect only works on the damage that was originaly assigned, kind of like their effect happens truly simultaneously and independendly of each other. To use an example, if you have multiple bloodletters in play and assign 1 damage to any unit, each of the bloodletters doubles this value, giving you 1 extra damage to the unit per each bloodletter on board. Hope this is clear enough.

GrumpyStranger said:

I can agree this answer, but I think your original thought is much logical than this one.

Because even the constant effect still need trigger and put into stack to wait resolve just like a normal action. If he resolve by the original assign damage only, then it disobey his FAQ about Deathmaster Sniktch and Flames of Tzeentch issue. In that FAQ, you should check the condition when resolve. Follow the same logic, you should check the conditin when resolve

time 0 --------------------- assign 1 damage

trigger 2 Bloodletter effect

time 1---------------------- assign 1 damage

resolve Bloodletter 1, double assign damage(1x2)

time 2----------------------- assign 2 damage

resolve Bloodletter 2, double assign damage(2x2)

time 3----------------------- assign 4 damage

then, when you check the Bloodletter 2's resolve condition, the assign damage should be 2 damage, not the time 0's 1 damage.

If it check condition and resolve by time0's assign damage, then it disobey his FAQ about Deathmaster Sniktch and Flames of Tzeentch like what I said above.

And if this answer is what designer want, this original text on Bloodletter is a mistake.

I would assume that Bloodletter only affects the originally assigned damage (i.e. the net damage without the bloodletter effect), but agree this is not clear from the wording, as Bloodletter damage is of course also 'assigned'.

Well, there's this passage under simultaneous effects in the 1.4

Players should always apply the net effect of Constant Effects that do not have a trigger.

English not being my first language, I didn't know what to do with this and overlooked this passage, but in light of the response it kind of makes sense.

GrumpyStranger said:

sorry, I must edit my reply because It said "Players should always apply the net effect of Constant Effects that do not have a trigger"

But Bloodletter has a trigger: "when they are assigned."

so we should follow the below sentences of the same section to resolve

"When two card effects trigger at the same time. The player whose turn it is currently applies his in any order of his choice. Then, the opponent applies his card effects in any order of his choice. Note that Actions, Forced Effects and Constant Effects always resolve in a fixed order, and so two card effects are only considered to be simultaneous if they are of the same card effect type. Keywords are considered Constant Effects during all timing resolutions."

LiouKen said:

In the example, the damage assigned by Plague Bomb (1 on first unit, 2 on second unit, 3 on third unit) is doubled in each case by the 3 Bloodletters (1 + 3 x 1 = 4, 2 + 3 x 2 = 8, 3 + 3 x 3 = 12). The difference is that each Bloodletter's doubling takes the only the damage initially assigned by the Plague Bomb as the basis, not the result of the doubling by the (previous) Bloodletters. The reason for the is the fact that the Constant Effect is applied on a net basis. If you keep doubling each time as you suggest, the total amount of damage assigned would actually depend on the sequence in which you assign the damage, which sounds counterintuative.

tako said:

But after I read that sentence of FAQ1.4

It said:"Two or more Constant Effects that do not have a trigger condition are not considered to be simultaneous. Players should always apply the net effect of Constant Effects that do not have a trigger . "

but in this case, Bloodletter has a trigger.

I'm afraid it does not. There is no condition that must be met for the effect to, well, come to effect. Every time damage is assigned, it is doubled. Contrast with the constant effect of Armoury "Kingdom. This card gains P while there are at least two developments in this zone".

I see it the same way, Bloodletter does not have a trigger. Triggers are typically cleary specified, referring to an event, state or timing that must occur for something to happen. Bloodletter only specifies what will happen, but makes no restrictions under which circumstances this will happen.

GrumpyStranger said:

I'm confused, if "when they are assigned" is not a trigger condition, then what is trigger condition?

And, yes, it's a condition that must be met for the effect. when "assgin damage" you can do this card effect, if not, you can't do this card effect.

tako said:

Follow your words

"Triggers are typically cleary specified, referring to an event, state or timing that must occur for something to happen."

In this case "When they are assigned" is a typical trigger by your words, because it refer to an timing(when assign) that must for something to happen(double assign damage).

It lacks an event limiting the use of the constant effect. It is active all the time, therefore cannot be considered a 'triggered' constant effect. The 'assign damage' is a time frame within the turn where the effect is manifest, yes, but there is no condition, under which the effect would not be resolved when assigning damage.(using my previous example of the armory card, the existence of two developments in the same zone is the effect's trigger, because the card does not gain an additional P until they are present).

Rules as written aside, the intended mechanic has been explained by the developer in the answer posted at the start of this thread.

Thank you, GrumpyStranger.

Now I'll accept this rule, because I can't disobey creator's will even I don't think so.

Put into a mathematical equation where X is the number of damage being assigned, Y is the number of Bloodletters and Z is the total damage assigned: (X + [X]Y)=Z . So three Bloodletters and a Plague Bomb would be (1 + [1]3 = 4) and (2 + [2]3=8) and (3 + [3]3=12).

This is quite confusing, for bloodletter to work accordingly to that equation card text should be diffrent I think. Another thing is that doubling damage before it is applied contradicts the rule of non-combat damage, that it should be applied immedatley ( it is doubled before it is applied ).

The 'no action window' between applying and assigning damage for non-combat damage doesn't apply for forced and constant effects, since they resolve automatically as soon as possible, stopping the chain of events if necessary.

But yes, I too think that the bloodletters are worded poorly for their intended effect.

For those who are in trouble with the semantic of X+[X]Y = Z, you can also see that as X[Y+1]=Z.

In the case of Bloodletter we are in trouble because the wording "double" is poor when multiple Bloodletter are in play. It is a litteral formulation, according to a specific case of the previous formula. (it could have been a "constant" Z=2X, Z=X[2^Y], ....)

It is possible to word the card with the general semantic of the formula, which could be welcome in future reprint of the card.

Something such as :

For each Bloodletter in game add once again all damage assigned to units when they are assigned. (sorry for my poor english for such a sentences, this is supposed to be the semantic of X[Y+1])

There are already cards that are checking the number of card in game

I have one additional question:

Is the damage only doubled on enemy units or also when an enemy does damage to my own units? I ask this because it seems to me that it is a constant effect that that happens in each situation when damage is assigned.

(I hope my english is good enough, because i am from Germany)

Damages are doubled on any units, no matter who is controling the units