While at the Iowa Reqional last weekend, Shives McShivers, Maester_Luke and I were having a discussion when Shives asks the following:

Given the current metagame, what is Martell's best card?

Knowing Shives as I do, I know he already has his thoughts and is fielding discussion. Luke pipes in with Venomous Blade, repeatable, free (after the 1st 2G) kill is very powerful. The ability to remove an opponent's utility and/or claim soak can be huge.

I found myself agreeing with Luke, after pausing to consider Red Vengeance and Burning on the Sands and A Game of Cyvasse. Ultimately I agreed with Luke.

Shives says no, it's He Calls it Thinking. A free cancel for any non-influence response is huge, especially one that cancels dupes being used as saves. After some back and forth Luke and I found Shives reasoning to be pretty sound.

So, given the current state of the game, restricted list, meta strengths, etc. what do you feel is currently the best Martell card in the environment? And importantly, why?

I feel like the question could be what is the best card in the game regardless of house, and we'd probably still be looking at the same list of cards.

Now I would tend to agree with Shives here. In an environment that has very little cancel (well very little cancel that actually sees play), having a free, in house cancel is pretty huge. Especially when you do look at the fact that people are using more dupes and more saves in general. Not to mention that it then becomes an attachment with a str boost. It also looks like He Calls It Thinking is going to be almost as repeatable as VB with the new martell event coming out that lets you recurse the top four cards and the maester decks that use great sept and initiate.

I think He calls it thinking lost some value with the reprint of paper shield.

Venomous blade definitely seems like a good card, especially because you can search for it with a plot now.

I think I side with VB. I am also a huge fan of burning on the sands though. With martell, I feel like often times, one challenge can be the difference between winning and losing.

Maybe this should be what are their top 10 best cards? I don't know that I could isolate a single one.

Staton said:

What about the new Baelor Blacktyde? I feel like he's really going to put a crimp on events. But if we're just talking what is best right at this exact moment, I think I'll go out on a limb and say Poisoned Knife. Yes it's an attachment, but it's the single most dangerous attachment in the game, potentially. I'm sure no one agrees with me, which is fine.

I'd vote for venemous blade. He Calls it Thinking is great; but, it's the repeatable part of venemous blade that gives it the edge (as both are effectively free).

Stasis said:

Stasis said:

These conversation often stray, I'm trying to keep it tight and on point. We can certainly pursue other house's but let's try and focus on Martell right now.

That said. I think the inclusion of Paper Shield in the environment actually helped He Calls it Thinking, as this is a fantastic target for HCiT, though I appreciate your point that Paper Shield is a solid answer for HCiT as well. There were several games at Iowa where I was in a Paper Shield/HCiT duel. I believe both games against Eric and I played head to head at Iowa had this exchange.

WolfgangSenff said:

Well Baelor is certainly awesome, but doesn't really hurt HCiT. For one, it turns into an attachment instead of going to the discard pile. And second, it is recursed pretty easily so again, not really in the discard pile.

Burning or Cyvasse. Martell's centers on the ability to control challenges rather than characters. Knocking off low-STR characters is a huge boon, but a Martell deck without VB still plays just like a Martell deck. (For example, play Narrow Escape instead and you can still make a very effective control deck.) Take away the powerful events and there's really nothing left. To put this another way, a timely Burning can destroy an aggro deck and swing a close game. Of course, unchecked a VB can do the same over the course of 3-4 rounds, but the effect is much more incremental.

Also, VB is especially powerful (and has been for awhile) in large part because the metagame undervalues attachment removal. With the Oldtown cycle introducing so many new attachments and 3-STR characters, I expect to see VB a lot less 3-4 months from now. In contrast, Burning in particular will continue to be powerful so long as this game's win condition is centered around winning challenges.

As great as He Calls It Thinking is, this is still just a support card that helps to maintain control once you already have it. Against many decks, these sit in your hand...even if there's a target to cancel, it's often not all that exciting. I'm not saying a cancel can't swing a game, but it's much more situational and typically less useful than Burning or Cyvasse. It's definitely not what I dread when I sit down across from a Martell deck.

We have a topic like that in France and it's beetwen Burning and Lost Oasis....And Venomous Blade a bit.

But for the best card ever, it's Papershield !!!

Venomous blade is probably one of the most powerful, its so powerful that I have to take it into account in everytime I build a deck and it stops me from completely playing some weird funny deck that relies on 2str character(s). Also you need to act fast with the attachment removal since its likely to bounce back to the shadows as fast as it came from there (if you dont have answer right at the moment).

Since my decks are build to survive VB I don't see it problematic card in games but it hurts deckbuilding alot. The game ruiners of martell events for me are BoTS especially if the martell player has 2 of them in hand and there is certain challenge that I need to get trough and the other event is he call it thinking. Both of these events (just like VB) are very very versatile when you compare them to what other houses have gotten, he calls it thinking is a better drinking the sea (thanks to which he calls it thinking has gotten a nick here "he calls it drinking"). He calls it thinking can be used in countless situations and can keep your opponent on his/her toes for his resposes. Same is true with the BoTS which also is I would say way too versatile since you can use it at any challenge.

I'll also give honorable mention to Taste for Blood, which is really pain to deal with as a lannister or greyjoy player. Also why none of the martells great attachments aren't conditions (especially Taste for blood, the name atleast to me sounds like a condition )

I'd say Viper's Bannersmen. Game of Civasse comes close in my book, but Bannersmen are just that good. Huge card advantage, huge challenges advantage (Str 7, deadly stealth). It's expensive, but I can't find another card in the game that powerful.

Burning on the Sand, like the other auto win challenge, initiative, dominance events are inherently broken and bad for the game; and BotS takes it to the next level. It's talentless and destroys the intent and rules of the game. It's in the same spirit as the hypothetical "play this card and instantly win" card. No strategy, no planning, just draw this card and change the mechanics of the game. So for me Burning takes the place inherently. All the other options are overpowered versions of legitimate game mechanics(character control, event cancel, card advantage, strong characters to win challenges, etc). I can't wait til the whole cycle disappears.(maybe they can join the Fury plots on the Restricted List)

Its the Red Viper

all these other cards are in support of this beast. 3 str noble lord with renown who doesnt kneel to attack if you have less charcters on the board. . .which works because with the amount of events your running you probably will have less characters. plus TRV with Lost Oasis or Poisoned Blade. Comon

Its all about Oberyn

Burning on the Sands. As a Baratheon player I fear this card more than any other.

You instantly shut down my vigilant/renwon mechanics (as kpmccoy says) by just top decking an event - its definitely their strongest card. Paper Shield helps - but there's no guarantee you have a cancle handy. You almost ahve to run Shield + HAnd's judegment to answer this one card.

Staton said:

Doh. I forgot about that. Dang. Alright, I'll go with HCiT as well then.

Twn2dn said:

While I could agree, I find that cancelling someone's expected save with a dupe can be a much, much bigger game changer than any other move in the game. This is why I vote for HCiT. True, Cyvasse and Burning are strong, but Cyvasse can backfire. I think for me, it's definitely either Burning or HCiT.

I would say VB, hands down. Don't get me wrong, I am annoyed by all the others, but being able to effectively increase your military claim 1+ every turn is just too good compared to one-hit wonders like the events.

I don't remember losing a game only due to the events (although I am sure they helped). I have lost games (and won games) almost entirely based on a first turn VB. Most recently, at Kubla my opponent had two in the first two turns, and that - even playing against trait manipulation where I should control characters - won that game.

In second I would put Game of C, mainly since again it affects the field so much considering its timing and many times two-sided effect (a kneel AND a control card, plus usually a challenge win). Many times it is a 3 card/effect swing.

In third probably Burning. For reasons Stag alluded to. It can really put you over the top vs. one-challenge heavy decks like Bara or Stark.

In fourth (maybe 3b) then Calls it Thinking. #1, it has to have an effect to have its effect. Yes, that isn't hard to find, and many times it changes the dynamic of the entire phase, but many times it is a 1 for 1 swing, which I think the other cards have more bang for that buck.

I certainly respect the reasoning on Calls, but I guess in my experience it doesn't control the board like VB or Game of C, and it hasn't been the major influence in a win vs. certain houses like Burning.

Jumping on the bandwagon here... it's gotta be venemous blade. The easy recursion is huge. Used to be TRV and he's still very strong, but most folks have some sort of answer for problem characters like him and Beric.

I'm torn between VB and Burning. VB just kills things - for 2 gold, it's repeatable and almost infinitely reusable kill that is almost unconditional and is very hard to remove. It completely gimps some types of decks. Targ burn is MUCH more conditional, Ilyn Payne is much more expensive (and much more vulnerable to removal,

As for burning, being able to cancel a challenge and leave all your opponents' characters kneeling is incredible character control - even if only a character or two are used in the challenge, you can use it to deny one of your opponents' challenges for the turn. It's death for Bara Rush and Stark Siege decks which need just one more challenge to be able to win.

Stag Lord said:

The chance of you drawing Paper Shield is the same as me drawing BotS. Not saying that makes BotS all of a sudden not a great card, but rather that anyone who says that Paper Shield is a shot-in-the-dark to cancel it because you have to draw it is overstating.

To be honest, though, I don't like either card.

Well, I like them, but because they're easy to use and OP. I'd rather see both out of the game, tbh.

Paper shield is not even close to OP.

ShivesMcShivers said:

I was thinking about this the other day, and my only wish is that it didn't cancel "kneel a character" events... costing has been a bit uneven, and those events seem to get the worst in the reprint. Otherwise I think it's fine.

I do find it interesting, from a historical perspective, what path events have taken. PS (along with Immunity to Events) came out in Valyrian Edition as part of a design direction to make characters more durable. Events like Put to the Sword, Tears of Lys and Contested Claim had been the dominant neutral character control.* They could create huge swings (especially a first turn Sword & Put to the Torch), and PS almost functioned as a save in those cases as such. Now it seems were more about cancelling effect events (or forcing through said events, when the opponent holds a Paper Shield.

I see where I'm going with this post, I'll start a different thread regarding most commonly cancelled events.

*This is my best recollection, I&F block was my first play experience, and it was mostly just clu & I as the original Iowa City meta dispersed, and Jaggerman, Ovinophile, et al. from the UNI crowd faded away. Feel free to correct my revisionist history if I'm misinterpreting anything.

I actually had to think about this topic for quite a bit, before finally coming back to the same answer:

Venomous Blade. Definately.

The card is in a way absurd, since most decks are already heavily decked against it (people avoid characters with less than 3 STR), but it still manages to swing lots of games. It even protects Martell from cards which would otherwise be effective against them (Alannys, Core Pycelle). I have to disagree with Twn2dn:s suggestion that attachment control has been undervalued, I think it's more to do with the environment lacking cost-effective solutions or VB being immune to the existing ones (Cressen, Lemonwood, Scurvy Cutthroat). This of course has changed slightly with the Maester -cycle, but it's still almost impossible to stop a good player from using VB effectively. Even against decks heavy with attachment control (Targaryen with Meerenese Brothel or Maesters with the new chain) VB is at worst "a card for a card" deal (and a good Martell player will see this coming, and make sure you lose something crucial like a Samwell Tarly...). If you have to use Ill Tidings to get rid of it, then you've lost a character, knelt another one and played an event for one 2 gold attachment...

Burning on the Sand (and Red Vengeance) can be more cost-effectively teched against than VB, with say: Brienne, the new Euron, Borderland Keep, Paper Shield, using non-vigilant stand with Bara (Marya, Massey's Hook) and just plain hand destruction (or Fear of Winter). He Calls it Thinking is very good for its versatility and an amazing toolbox card, but it doesn't win games.

There's just not much you can do to stop your opponent from hitting your most valuable low-str character (Tommen, Jeyne, Alannys, Marya, Black Hatchling, Carrion Bird, Samwell) as soon as they want, if they've setup a VB.

WWDrakey said:

The reason I still think Burning is stronger is that as time goes on, power creep and the introduction of new cards will (I predict) make VB weaker, whereas stronger characters make cards like Burning/Cyvasse even more powerful, because it becomes essential for a control player to stop an opponent's response effects (think Wintertime Marauders, Jhogo, Flaming-Pitch Tower, etc.). HCiT can help cancel, but if a player has 3-4 responses to a single challenge (which is common in a dothraki build), one cancel isn't enough to maintain control. Maybe my thinking sounds theoretical, but to give a concrete example, in the CCG era, there were many more options for cheap 3-STR characters, as well as attachment control and/or spot character removal, which fills the same role in this instance (since you lose VB if the character dies). The CCG era also had more saves and "can't be killed" effects. Meanwhile, cards like The Blackfish, which had very powerful effects that triggered after winning challenges, were more ubiquitous (I think...I could be misremembering here though). Maybe such powerful mechanics will never return to this game, but if they do, cards like Burning and Cyvasse are uniquely equipped to give Martell the tools it needs to remain in control.

In short, VB's ability doesn't scale up with power creep or an evolving card pool. If anything, VB will become less relevant over time, unless there is a lot more support for weapons, for example Alchemist's Shop. In contrast, winning challenges will always be important in this game, and as the environment speeds up, games will move faster, and each challenge will be even more critical to control.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see this shift happen over the next 4 months. Oldtown is going to change the metagame, it already has to some degree. Running many more attachments WILL be common among top builds, and top players will have to find ways to deal with that. I'm not talking about Meereenese Brothel OOH or even Ill Tidings (both of which will likely see A LOT more play in the Oldtown environment). Tin Link is an extremely easy, efficient option, and creative players may find other options. The natural solutions that deal with problematic in-house attachments, milk of the poppy, etc. will conveniently also make it easier to deal with VB.