Alando said:

Its not as good anymore. There are a lot of new ways to deal with him.

@Matt: Re: Martell/Summer being dominant. Given the slowly changing card pool over the course of the regional season, I'm not sure where you draw a conclusion about deck strength versus driver. Do you want to judge decks by how they're played by competent, average or poor players? Erick took DC & NYC (15 + 9), I took MN with 24, Joey finished 4th @ Kubla (and the 3 people ahead of him are great players & have more experience in AGOT, at least), and Erick's friend Tim took 4th @ Iowa behind equally good finishers, and then 1st @ Chicago over a field of 12 including Casey, Mallesh & the Shiek. There was 1 Martell/Summer @ MO, and I'm not sure of the pilot. This seems pretty comparable to Lanni/Kneels dominance last year...

Fieras said:

This was where I stood on the "pre-restricted" Laughing Storm. There have been quite a few times were people have felt "required" to play certain houses (or avoid others) to be competitive in tournaments... and I hardly think it would have hurt to see a regional season where control-oriented players might feel driven to play something more aggressive. I certainly don't think it was dominant, and didn't have the experience of seeing repeated first turn wins from a Bara-Heir deck. (not that I doubt it could be a problem).

And there are certainly enough players who would take it as a challenge to find a way to beat an over-powered build (assuming no "mid-season" errata) rather than be sucked in. I'm interested to read more about the European metas, where it sounds like there is a lot of house loyalty during the "regular season" (and look at their board-names)... but people will shift to play the competitive decks at big events.

Alando said:

I think you could, and I haven't looked to see what you could do differently to counter the greater number of options. Attachments: Milk of the Poppy, Flogged& Chained, Locations like Alchemist's Guild Hall, Bear Island and the Black Cells (the last depending on whether his ability is active), or just enough stealthy-beef (Im looking at you, Wildlings) to keep him from winning... or enough chaff to keep him from in addition the unopposed, and he's vulnerable to plot effects.

On the positive side you can keep him around with Dupes, Bodyguards, OoH Iron Mines, and The Power of Blood...avoid negative attachments with Maester of Lemonwood or a Here to Serve-able Cressen... buff him with Lost Oasis, Alchemists Shop + a Weapon (VB is often available), or an OoH Devious Intentions... and accelerate the power grab with Taste of Blood and the Red Wedding.

In my experience, it helps to have another finisher... and To the Spear! plus a couple of other renown characters can be great: Arys, Darkstar, Harmen Uller (then you don't need a full hand), Or even Lady Oakheart, Thoros and the Former Champion out of the neutrals.

Man, now I"m jonesing to play it again.

rings said:

Martell has arguably the best character control, challenge control, and response cancel in the game. Why couldn't they keep it in play. Not to mention the character with the best immunities in the game. If 2 bannerman fuel a game, why wouldn't the cheaper version be strong? I get that with the maester chains everyone is afraid to run attachments, but that fad will pass too, and then you're back with 2 gold for any unique to become reveal star. 2 gold to preempt the draw cap 3-6 times each round seems cheap to me. As I recall, Darkstar was a popular choice for On Raven's Wings for that reason back in the CCG.

kpm - there is a big difference between a 3 cost character that gets to challenge and a 2 cost attachment with limitations and inherent weaknesses (you have to protect the character AND the attachment). *shrug* I would be surprised to see it played with so many other options for draw/reveal out there right now.

Luke - I guess it is the definition of dominant. You are right that the same argument against it (it was driven by very good players when it won) can be made against it (when it lost, it was to very experience players). But the fact remains that it didn't win the two largest US Regionals. Again IMHO but that can't be named dominant, I would rather name Erick dominant.

I don't know - I don't see any winning Martell deck where VB wasn't played. Show me that and I will concede, since I showed a deck that won a big tourney w/o Bannermen. In no deck does killing 2 strength characters over and over again sound like a bad idea

On Lanni, they still have two of the top 5 cards in the game IMHO (GTM and the restricted Cache), and a wealth of just solid stuff. Their events are pretty close to as good, and they have a pretty good control theme going for them (trait manip). They also use Carrion Birds the best (well, maybe Stark at times?) which is many top deck's go-to control move.

I still wouldn't go with TVB as its still cost 7 gold which can be a hard feat if your opponent playes choke still deck or is good at location controlling.

I'm still going to say that VB is the most powerful one they have. No other card they have stops me from building a deck completely, VB has done that alot. Even before I get the deck done I notice that it will be complitely slaughtered if my opponent has acces to VB. Other character control in this game isn't repeatable as easily and greywind has to specifically be on Robb Stark to deal same kind of dmg and I can protect my characters from Greywinds bite by giving them str boost, VB ignores completely str boosts and attachments (which is really why I don't like playing atachments on 2 str characters). So VB just because no other card distrupts my deck building as much as it does.

rings said:

I did pretty well in MN (only lost to Greg...twice in an unwinnable games, ran fleeing to the wall for the rest of the tourney season!) without VB. I did run Bannermen, He Calls It Thinking, Red Viper, and my favorite beatstick to win Southron Mercenaries. I would say He Calls It Thinking was the best game changing card in the deck, especially combined with Citiadel Initiate. Canceling other Bannermen, dupes, and VB to keep it in play was a beating every time. But, I certainly concede that it comes down to play style.

I think it speaks volumes that the only way I figured I could beat Greg's deck without location control was hoping I drew all 3 He Calls It Thinking and Southron Mercenaries with Kingdom of Shadows to handle his early Black Cells. HCIT is a good counter versus every deck. It's also the best cancel in the game. Easy to play, gives +2 str, and cancals triggered effects from any card. Also my vote for best Martel card.

Oooo...Thinking plus Iniatite. Nice. I knew it in the back of my mind, but good to be reminded of that combo. I was a big fan of Twyin's Protege plus Writ Small back in the day...

rings said:

Oh my lord. Those were the days, it's a classic! Bring back Northern Pass WTF. Not to hop topic, He Calls It Thinking is the best card of it's type in the game. There can be arguements for best kill on a stick character, intrigue machine, or targeted kill card. But not cancel. HCIT is light years ahead of any other card of it's type.

Pre-Paper Shield this would have looked a little bit different, but In terms of current overall utility/wins games (generally speaking):

1. The Viper's Bannermen
2. Venomous Blade (a close third and may move down as SoO is released. Easy 1st/2nd if it wasn't restricted.)
3. Game of Cyvasse
4. Burning on the Sand
5. He Calls it Thinking/The Red Viper

In terms of under-costedness/power level ratio.

1. Burning on the Sand
2. Venomous Blade
3. Lost Spearman
4. The Viper's Bannermen*

*This really isn't meant to be my "official" 4th, nor am I completely sold on what i'm about to say, but I think there's a decent chance the army is a little too good -- even at 7 cost.