Dam said:

Good answer. But if you adopt the optional rule "Evading unfriendly individuals" at page 20 of the revised manual, I think the Grim Reaper might still fall under the category. If you analyze it word by word, the rule states that you can Evade any unfriendly individual depicted on a card or space, except the ones in the Inner Region.

Grim Reaper is actually depicted on a card (the Grim Reaper card), but considering the small chances she has to land on a player (in 2-3 player games) it's better not to extend this optional rule to the Reaper. Evading Death herself seems ridiculous to me, but I asked just to know if someone had the feeling it might be done in compliance with the official rules.

The_Warlock said:

I actually like the fact that FFG made it clear what you can and can't Evade, not like previous editions, where you had to list everything by name. I definately won't be using that optional rule. They (FFG) already nerfed many of the bad encounters (Raiders, Witch [used to have bad results on 1-3, now only on 1-2], etc.), this game needs more bad stuff, not less. Of course, like I keep saying, I keep the BI Raiders in the box to pull out and show what they actually do when the Raiders are drawn .

Dam said:

Raiders could have been kept as they were before, I don't understand why they watered down this card. With the new Reaper expansion, FFG decided to add many negative Events, Strangers and powerful Enemies, along with several powerful Objects and Followers. I hope the whole game is still balanced, but had no occasion to play it yet.

In BI Talisman you can Evade unfriendly individuals, apparently, and this makes sense because there are few Characters with Evading Abilities (only Dwarf and Elf); other players have only the Immobility/Invisibility Spells and Gnome/Pixie Followers. Evading looks like a pretty weak and limited ability, if you restrain it to Characters and Enemies only.

If we return on topic and consider the Elf , if he cannot evade Raiders, Witch and Hag, is he enough powerful with no other significant Abilities? I'll make an exception for the Reaper, because Evading Death sounds like godly power to me, but if you don't use the optional rule the Evading Ability is significantly less useful. And so is the Elf Character, who has a low Fate value as well.

The_Warlock said:

3 Fate is low ? Heck, I'm not using any of the board erratas except Village (so no Fate refresh) and 3 Fate is still plenty. Then again, in the games so far (10 games using Upgrade + Reaper), Wheel of Fate, Fate Stealer and Pool of Fortune have popped up quite frequently. Fate Stealer especially.

Dam said:

Well, before speaking, I should definitely try the game with the new Fate rules. I don't know exactly how much Fate influences the game, I was just comparing the Elf to other Good Characters, who have rather high Fate (Priest and Monk) or stronger Abilities or Starting Values (Knight/Prophetess).

Since I will play with the new board and Graveyard refresh, a Good Character with 3 Fate has a low value indeed, because he has no chance to replenish it in the Outer region except the cards you mention (which are from the Reaper expansion). In comparison, the Evil Ghoul with 4 Fate is quite impressive.

The_Warlock said:

The Elf can always choose to avoid Death, if not evade, in a 2 player game. If you look at the layout of the Woods spaces, a canny Elf (with no Fate, and therefore much to fear) can simply *poof* to a Woods more than 6 spaces from Death. Again, the Elf's ability is more powerful in a 2-3 player game. In a 6 player game, maybe more than one opponent will move the Reaper and then there's nowhere to hide.

So, evade Death? No. Avoiding Death? Usually just as good.

The_Warlock said:

Well, IMO the Ghoul kinda sucks. Not a big fan of him. So high Fate doesn't save him. IF, and that's a big IF, the Ghoul can get an early Craft boost, he can syphon off lives from other chars, but his strength still remains woeful. In 3 games which Ghoul has been in, he's 1-2 (win-loss), though one of those occasions he was a mid-game replacement for another char. Monk has the same record, difference being that Monk hasn't been a replacement, but has died mid-game once. Priest? 0-2, with 2 Mid-game deaths ! Yeah, Priest sucks big time.

If you're going to use the new board, you could always try to get the Druid Staff for the Elf, flicking him to Evil when he gets a shot at landing at Graveyard. Elf still has a total of 7 points divided between his starting Str/Craft, better than many others (if only by 1 point). Of course, should probably note that Elf is 0-2, one of those times he was drawn as mid-game replacement.

Dam said:

I won with the Ghoul once (and played him twice), but never found him very strong. Basically I won thanks to Wand and Solomon's Crown. Your statistics are quite realistic.

If you use Fate without any chance of restoring points, except Reaper cards like Pool of Fortune, I don't think you'll get the correct perception of the Rule. I know you bought the Upgrade Pack and decided not to change your board accordingly (I considered it for a moment, then bought the whole revised game), but if Evil Characters don't get an advantage from Fate, there's no reason in the point balance FFG tried to apply.

Well, this is just what I think, not my experience. If you're unlucky with the dice, there's no Fate rule that can help you. It just gives you a second chance, if you need it, but lucky winners usually don't need a second chance.

The_Warlock said:

You're right about full-Fate impact when using old board. Thing is though, which Evil chars have a lot of Fate? Ghoul has 4, everyone else has less, DC comes in at measly 1 Fate. Assassin, Sorceress and Wizard pack 3 IIRC and none of those 3 do I consider a weak char/need any more of an advantage. Add to this Druid (4 Fate + replenish Spells at Woods) and Druid Staff, then you can have those powerful high-Fate Good/Neutral chars (like Monk with frickin' 5 Fate , ditto for Dwarf with 5 Fate ) harvesting Graveyard for free refill.

Also, wasn't one of the reasons for adding Fate that is would speed up play? So far, even without the refill at Graveyard for Evil/Neutral, what little Fate has been in the game, has slowed it down. Normally you'd roll once for yourself and someone rolls once for enemy in combat and you'd be done. Now you can choose to reroll your roll. Same with any card/space where you roll. So instead of speeding the game, it slows it down by adding more rolls. If I were to use the board modifications, I'm thinking the games would slow down even more, with esp. Evil chars being more free with their Fate use. In the game so far, any char starting with 5 Fate usually has enough to last the whole game, unless s/he meets several nasty encounters. Also, later in the game, you need less Fate for combats, as they become walkovers.

As for balance, I prefer the old Graveyard as easy access to Spells for Evil chars. 5+ for Spell, with easy heal chance as well? It is/was nice. Better for Spells than Chapel, but that one is of course better for Good chars as heal space.

Dam said:

I got the idea. Fate can speed up the game if it allows you to POSITIVELY reroll some important rolls, i.e. an Enchantress/Witch roll that would have turn you into a Toad, now gives you one Craft point. If players abuse it, it slows down the game for sure. It's like the "spellcycling problem" we discussed in the other thread. Fate should not be used in any combat, just the ones you can't afford to lose. Why a Priest should pay one fate to reroll if he loses a Life to a Goblin in the early game?

Rules for Fate and Spells cannot stop players from abuse, but I know that the players who insist on the same spaces of the Board for a long time usually don't win the game. You have to wander and try a mix of everything, stay away from hostile Characters, try to gain Strength/Craft in many different ways, giving preference to the easiest ones (according to your Character's Abilities).

The_Warlock said:

If I rolled a 1-2 and Goblin a 3, if I were playing the Priest, I'd reroll, esp. if still had 4-5 Fate.

The_Warlock said:

FATE has definetly slowed the game down IMO. Because it stops people bombing out, everyone keeps going along at a strong pace. I played a 2 1/2 hour game last night because neither player could break away (as almost all negative impacts were negated) and goto the crown without a risk of losing. When I made it up it took forever to kill off the last player (ghoul with carpet and horse), as it was just too easy to get to the graveyard and fate his way to heal around the board (Healer was in play, and good cards were coming out). I went up with 10 natural strength and craft, 16 STR in combat, and he ended up piling up about 9 extra strength points in that time.

If fate wasn't in the game it would have been reduced to about half that.

FYI: After playing 20 or so games now, the enchantress IS a cheap craft or strength gain for those with high fate, and it I found it easy to replenish fate if evil, but its not worth it unless you have 3 or more fate. As bad luck doesn't tide the game, its harder for the weaker characters to win now, so it seems like you have to get that cheap str/craft to be competitive.

If you feel that Fate is lengthening your games, then try limiting it to one use per turn instead or once per die roll.

talismanisland said:

Umm, I play without board mods, so no replenishing Fate, so there isn't enough to go around for multiple uses per turn normally, and it still slows the game down. Of course, you do get those times when even without replenish, Fate gets high, Assassin + Fate Stealer is Fate unending. And that's even with using the "Un-Godlike" Assassin, so no assassinating Enemies you draw, only ones that are already face up and you land on.

I have not played with the elf yet, but i think he is not so good.

Or maybe you must use his warp ability in the woods to make him more active..

But in my eyes, they are better characters then the elf.

It's really sad. i like elfs very much....

House rule alert !!! ... read no further if you don't do house rules ...

We also use the house rule that the elf can move to ANY woods space regardless of region.

We allow the dwarf to start the game with EITHER armor or an axe also.

We allow the priest (on the movement roll of a "6") to automatically move to the chapel (if in the outer region) or the temple (if in the middle region)

In the old days of talisman we also had a house rules for a few other characters (but we ditched all those abilities once 4.5 came out)

We allowed the druid to always have a spell once he reached 7 or higher craft.

We allowed the troll to start with 6 lives.

We allowed the warrior to choose to EITHER use his two dice rolling ability in combat against another player OR disarm a weapon that player currently holds forcing them to drop it on the space before the combat starts.

Today, i have see my opponent playing with the elf.

And i must say that the elf is very active, by warping each turn from woods to woods !

There was almost a magic stream on the woods space. ( one space further) lol

"Awwww crap i got the elf! Wish i could've just gotten the (insert any other character here)" Is a very popular phrase in my group, as he just can't do anything cool. "he can woods warp though!" Woo. Freaking. Hoo. i just think they should have at least given him a fisrt strike thing or something, as he has a bow, but i gues some characters are better than others. Also i don't think that the dwarf is that overpowered.

grim_reaper_zig said:

I wouldn't call dwarf over-powered. I would call him the perfect rush character though. With normal draws, he can outright get to the Crown faster than anybody. In the games here, Dwarf is one of the few characters to have a 50% record (see the "Favourite character" thread for more details).

@ Velhart: Did the Elf win that game?

Dam said:

Hey Dam,

No, the elf did not won the game. He has made a bad choice when he won from me in pvp combat. He could take my talisman but choose the magic crown( forget the real name..)

Off course, i run away from him, but it's very difficult, because the elf can warp trough the woods. So each time, he was in my presence ! ( i am sure that he thought that he would take my talisman for the second time in pvp combat, but i have not give him the chance !

Later in the game, i obtain 3 talismans!

The elf was stuck with a warlock quest, and must try to reach the city. In the maintime, i was already in the inner region with my prophetess.

if the elf receive a talisman earlier in the game, then i am almost sure i lost the game....

Dam said:

Hey Dam,

Today it was a battle against the Philosopher and the Elf ( Both earlier characters from me and opponent where dead so i have drew another one that is the Philopher.

Because of some mistakes at the crown, i lost from the elf

Next time, i take a better look at my spell cards...( i have the wand too in my possesion ****

Our group recently modified the elf. We used to let him pop from outer region to middle region, but now we play him exactly how he says on the card but ...

In addition to his normal abilities:

1) The elf may add +1 to his movement roll on any turn that he starts in a forest or woods space.

2) The elf adds +1 to combat rolls if he is within 1 space of a forest or woods space.

Malthule said:

oke, but it is not really needed.

The elf is already powerful enough

It's a balance character who can warp through woods.

Nah he's weak.

Popping from woods to woods can be useful, but more often than not it's a situational ability and if you get 1-2 woods gummed up with cards that do you no good or you can't beat (places or monsters) you essentially have a character with no abilities at all.

Can you win with him? Of course, and I have also a couple times. Can you get cool setups in the woods occasionally? Yup. ... but he is typically one of the least desired characters to play.

There are about 4-5 of us that have played this game a few times a month for 13+ years. They all agree.

Malthule said:

True but here lately in our group he has ended up with cards like Idol or Magic Stream and a few turns later he's way ahead of the other characters. I remember in the above example I had to use my Philosopher to destroy the Idol to to deny the Elf any more chances to buff up.