Deinos said:

You are missing the point.

I am not trying to start any more of the inane "sisters are equal because my codex says so" crap. A SoB will only ever be an above average human in power armor. They will never be equal to the capabilities of a genetically and surgically altered human designed for the single purpose of prosecuting war in the most hostile conditions possible.

The Astartes have a level of skill and cohesive unity that allows them to fight like no other organization. The ability for space marines to work as a unit, represented by squad mode, is something that no other combat unit can achieve, nor should they be able to, in my opinion.

Astartes were made by the Emperor and yet they don't view him as a god. How will a SoB reconcile that fact when her whole existence and world view revolves around total blind devotion to the God-Emperor? How can these heathen Astartes be what they are without faith?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Not without divine intervention. However their fighting skills (WS/BS) seem to be at least equal to that of Astartes.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Blood. Sacred Blood. The Primarchs are the Arch-Angels of the Emperor and the Astartes trace their blood to them.

However how a Palatine stacks versus an Astartes is a matter of interpretation. The "Codex cr*p" interpretation is just as valid as yours or anyone elses.

In my estimation, yes, the Astartes should be superior, normally (even then we better discount faith powers). However PCs are not normal.

Alex

ak-73 said:

So how well you shoot or hit is what defines equal now?

Skill at hitting with a weapon does not define how capable a person is in combat. The ability to operate without sleep for days with no detrimental effects, a near self repairing body, near immunity to deadly poisons, gases, and other toxins, superhuman endurance and strength, and decades of combat experience all add up to a level of combat capability that only the even more rare, hand crafted, Temple Assassins can beat.

If power armor is all it takes to make a physically above average human equal to Astartes then Astartes are a colossal waste of resources and a joke.

ak-73 said:

And the Space Marines are the emperors Angels(of death).

And yet they don't have faith or worship their grandfather/god. The heretical aspects of Space Marines, when you take into account the current state of the Imperium, should be an issue to any SoB that spends time with Astartes.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I didn't say any of that though. I am saying that in some aspects they are as well-trained as the Astartes and what they lack for in enhancements in others they partially make up for spiritually through their faith powers.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Some do worship the Emperor as their god. Most though simply have their own faith, enforced by the chapter chaplains. And nobody is above corruption, not even the sisters - nobody except Grey Knights that have bathed in their blood, that is.

Anyway even though they had their hand in the Imperium's history there would have been no Imperium without them either. Their blood remains sacred. It is the blood that has stood between the Emperor's body and the forces of Horus during the heresy after all.

Alex

ItsUncertainWho said:

That's cool, but I'm talking about how Palatines are in the RPG. Is it that an astartes bolter round will cause a slightly juicier explosion?

ItsUncertainWho said:

I disagree wholeheartedly, unless you can tell me what particular implant gives them short range telepathy with their squad mates I'm going to assume that squad mode is a mechanic introduced to represent far more mundane training, drilling and otherwise tremendous hard work according to a very specific training regime.

What's a Phalanx or testudo if not a very specific 'squad more'?

So yeah a bunch of insanely indoctrinated murder ******* that have been trained together since they were able to walk should be pretty unified.

A hell of a lot more than a group consisting of Vikings, Renaissance vampires and Gang fighters that may or may not follow a codex to one degree or another. Within a chapter you can argue that hypno indoctrination yadda, yadda, but that's nothing exclusive to space marines and sounds pretty much like the short cut to getting the full length indoctrination that you can have if you raise them from children. And still it goes to great lengths to say how every space marine chapter is different so how that results in totally unity between all space marines doesn't make much sense.

^I'd agree completely that in theory other combat organisations may have a 'squad mode'. However, if stormtroopers lack such a thing (also being horribly well trained), then perhaps it indicate's that squad mode abilities take more time to learn than the normal mortal human warrior has available?

It's a not a simulationist game. Other careers don't get Squad Modes because they aren't combat troops that have a whole product line dedicated to them. Don't forget that in Oblivion's Edge a whole company of Stormtroopers is expected to perish where the kill-team is expected to prevail.

That's why I say only a PC Palatine can roll with a PC kill-team. An NPC Palatine/SoB should have more troubles keeping up.

Alex

Face Eater said:

The phalanx and testudo are combat formations but they don't represent what squad mode does.

Astartes spend decades, more than the entire combat lifespan of 99% of the Imperiums human war machine, in training and in combat, at a pace normal humans couldn't handle, before they are considered fully capable. If you spend decades training on how to operate as one with a small squad you will achieve a level of competence that no one else can match. The cohesion rules represent how your vikings, renaissance vampires, and gang fighters have trouble working together .

ItsUncertainWho said:

Shield Wall

Action: Half action

Cost: NA

Sustained: Yes

Effect: The warriors lock their shields together supporting their neighbours, forming a solid wall. Attacks from the front double the cover value provided by their shields.

A trite example but looks pretty much like a 'Squad mode ability to me'. Some of the best warriors antiquity spent most of their lives rigorously drilling just a few formations so they can do on command in a pitched battle. Any where when the combination of troops acts together to be more than the sum of their parts.

Space Marines are going to have more and better options but just because they first put in a Space Marine game now no one else gets to have it at all?

And really do the work better together than any given group of Tyranids within synapse who are effectively the same creature? Or should we only really bother with it PC's?

As I understand, your example would fit more a category of battle formation than a quad mode ability.

The Squad mode abilities of the space marines permits them to take advantage of the attack pattern/defensive pattern/chapter ability in addition to his own regular actions.

It's necessary not only a lot of drill training to do something like this, but also the genetics of an Astartes. When you use a Squad Mode ability is like the body of the space marine executes the action of the ability automatically, while he keeps his mind focused on what he's doing in the combat.

Like if you had a Space Marine armed with a bolter pistol and a power sword locked in melee against an enemy and when someone activates the Fire for Effect Attack Pattern he uses his bolt pistol to shot at the enemies using the ability while keeping up with the melee fight.

I think that the Squad Mode Abilities serve to ilustrate the superhuman level of training of the Astartes, just as the solo mode abilities ilustrate their superhuman biology (extra strenght, extra stamina, estra mental protection, etc.).

Many armies could use something like Squad Mode abilities, but I tend to think that this would only be possible at the expense of personal combat ability of the army, as the combat unity would be entirely focused on the maneuver.

In the end it seems like the superhuman bodies os the space marines let's them operate in levels above those of just drill training.

As I see it, a shield wall squad ability should permit the battle brothers to rapidly join with their brothers in a Shield Wall as an Reaction of an attack. Like your fighting closeby your battle brothers and when an enemy makes an attack at you, the marines rapidly join together to form a shield wall. As soon as the attack connects they leave the shield wall formation and continue to fight as they never had joined together to intercept the attack.

But that is only what I understand from the corebook, and I'm not exaclty an expert in the 40k Universe.

And sorry for thebad english.

I think that Squad Mode could represent more than just the intense training that Space Marines go through. I vaguely recall a scene in First Heretic where Custodes and Astartes fighting styles are being compared, with the suggestion that the latter are inherently more capable of fighting as a group because of some aspect of their genetic bond.

Face Eater said:

Do you really want to give your Genestealer NPC's Squad Modes?

Well, before it gets too simulationist again, let me reiterate that in the DW game I run the Astartes are the premier infantry force in the galaxy. They are the backbone on which the Imperium rests. So from that angle, no, the Nids shouldn't have squad modes because the Tactical Prowess of the Astartes will be superior. Which doesn't exclude that the Dagon Overload might not adapt.

Alex

Personally, the only forces I'm inclined to give Squad Mode to are Eldar Aspect Warriors (including the "not-quite Aspect Warrior" Incubi) and Ta'lissera Bonded Tau Battlesuit Teams - units whose bond as a fighting entity and/or preternatural awareness/understanding of the battlefield makes them able to perfectly coordinate their actions (and having tested this in practice, a Kill-Team against NPC Aspect Warriors using their own Squad Mode abilities makes for some really dynamic combats). Imperial Storm Troopers come close, IMO, but I'm more inclined towards an orders-style mechanic for the Imperial Guard in all their forms (that is, an officer gives an order, men under his command gain special actions to perform related to that order in place of their normal ones - similar to Squad Mode in theory, different in execution).

I work on the premise of the Astartes being as good as they are by absolute necessity - the enemies they're called upon to face are extremely dangerous, afterall. While Orks and Tyranids can get away with numbers supported by a few big powerful monsters, Eldar and Tau rely on individual prowess, high technology and fighting in an intelligent, adaptive and efficient manner.

That might include Chaos Marines, I presume.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Possibly, possibly not - depends on the nature of the Chaos Space Marine force - disparate warbands of temporarily-unified murderers, or lunatic tyrants ruling mortal bands through bloodshed and terror? No. Forces like the Word Bearers, still unified in purpose (for the most part), then yeah, they still get to employ Squad Mode abilities. As much as a lot of fans of Chaos Space Marines may like the idea of sticking to the Legions, forces that retain the cohesion and sense of the Legions should be firmly in the minority.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

But dreadful when encountered. Just the right opposition for a high rank kill-team.

Alex

ak-73 said:

No, Frankly I don't think any NPC's anything like that complicated a mechanic. In the unlikely event that they ever make Genestealer or Tyranid NPC's then they can consider some kind of Synapse mechanic.

Generally I concur with No1, although I would add, and I hate to drag this back on topic, SoB are indoctrinated for 15+ years from when they are children. While I don't think just copying squad mode is good fix for groups of Sisters, and taking a bit from the TT, they should have rules for squad based faith powers instead.

Face Eater said:

Alterantively it could easily be a Talent instead, similar to doubleteam.

Every professional army concentrated on drill historically, because it -more than individual skill at arms- was probably the most crucial aspect of training. But I don't see that as being in the same ball-park as Squad Mode. After all, we are referencing soldiers with rather short lives, who often did not train particularly hard compared to Astartes. If we give the likes of a 16 year old Norse warrior Squad Mode then you pretty much need to give it to every professional warrior in 40k, from PDF up.

Personally, I see Squad Mode as more demanding than that. Astartes: Yes. Chaos legions: Yes. Eldar: Yes. Everyone else: No. That's how high the bar is set.

Tau might be good, but lack the built in fluff-elite-factor of the other mentioned factions and long lives of battle. I might consider giving it to an ultra-elite Tau formation facing a high rank party, but otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Not only in order to restrict it to truly T1 troops, but in order to reduce mechanics. The horde system was designed to speed up combat and give me some cinematic scenes. I don't want to then slow the game down in other aspects. I'm personally not even keen on horde traits that give dodges et cetera. If I want that effect, I'll just use a bigger horde but have it consist of the same number of foes, in order to represent their team-work et al.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That is just your excuse for why Marines are always so disappointing right?

Really, for the background to make any sense, a thousand Marines need to be easily able to outfight an entire planets worth of Tau.

Cause if twenty million Tau can outfight every Marine in existance, they really don't deserve their reputation as the finest warriors in the universe, now do they.

--

I mean, to deliver a four man Deathwatch kill team to a mission we have sent 20 million tons of mile long space going cathedral on a special journey to hell and back.

If all you are fighting at the end is two Dire Avengers and a Striking Scorpion, well, it was hardly worth the trip, now was it.

AluminiumWolf said:

No it doesn't.

The Navy SEALs are not capable of outfighting the entire Chinese army, after all.

It's about application of force.

Siranui said:

In my game the Tau (at least initially) are more or less just one xeno race like many that have been eradicated by the Imperium before. Nothing too special about them.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yup. Like I say: It'd have to be the Tau's FINEST troops to warrant it, and for it to be designed specifically as a way to challenge a high Rank party in a specific manner. Otherwise: No.

Plus it might make for a great surprise too. You lead the players to underestimate the Tau a bit (at least at higher ranks) and then blam!

Elite Tau. Maybe these xenos aren't that easy to defeat after all...

Alex

I could possibly see some Xenos using something similar to Squad Mode abilities, maybe certain super-elite Tau, and maybe Aspect Warriors and Incubi (however, they'd only get one, overly focused ability).

However, Chaos Space Marines? No, I don't think so. They don't have the discipline any more. They don't get 'And They Shall Know No Fear', they don't split into Combat Squads, and they don't get Combat Tactics or the equivalent. Sure, I'm referring to tabletop, but it shows that the Chaos Marines don't use tactics and strategy in as refined a manner as the good guys. Okay, Space Wolves still get that stuff in spite of being super-non-Codex, but they and the Templars are special, I guess.