Stormast said:

Yeah, that's possible. But what do you think about my concept? Make her more squishy and slightly less damaging than the Marines unless she spends a fate point for a faith power that makes her more damaging or more resilient than a Battle-Brother (fate points are limites ressources after all)? I think it's an interesting dynamic when the sister you need to help protect much of the time suddenly starts to kick a** in a major manner and frequently ends up saving the KTs read end.

Alex

That's a possibility. The only thing I'm not completely set on is how long those benefits should last.

Your typical Sororita is not supposed to get that much more Fate Points than a Marine, should she? Of course you can modify that...

The thing is, if she gets the benefit for a whole encounter, you have to have more encounter than she has Fate Points (approximately twice more, let's say), which can be a bit of a drag. If it's for one turn only, well it's going to be a little sucky. For a number of rounds equal to her rank? That would sound balanced.

Stormast said:

For the rest of an encounter is fine. If she has as much as marines (3 to 5), she'll have to spend a fate point to buff, let's say, Toughness. But she also might want to buff damage to be able to hurt that Nid Warrior. That's two fate points. Even before re-rolls or healing wound point loss. Speaking fo which I think she should recover 3d5 or so per fate point if she does spend 30 seconds in prayer. Something like that.

Alex

Mantles of St. Ophelia and Cloaks of St. Aspira aren't unique relics, the latter are "just" fuzzy cloaks blessed on Holy Terra. As such, Ascension level sister of battle can expect to consistently be LESS squishy than an astartes. And don't forget that humans can in fact wear all the way up to terminator armor (unless termie inquisitors are SEKRIT SPESS MEHRENES and nobody telled me). This is before taking into account that Spirit of the Martyr will be able to give her +5 or so to defenses against impact and rending, making her and her allies virtually immune to melee attacks, while a friendly librarian's force field can make them virtually immune to ranged attacks. There isn't a single leg anyone can stand on to say that Palatines are somehow "squishy" or not 100% on par with astartes.

Offensively, they can dual wield the superior SoB storm bolters at range, and in melee, can use Wrath of the Righteous for +1d5, Hand of the Emperor for an extra layer of Unnatural Strength, Might of the Emperor for an extra +10 str/agi/tou (stacks with Frenzy), and The Unforgiving Blade for an extra 1d10 damage added to the 2d10 of the blade of admonition or the axe of retribution.

AND DON'T FORGET, as of rank 1, a Palatine gets a "virtual burned fate point," which amongst other things, means she can LITERALLY RESURRECT a battle brother once per session without anyone losing a fate point.

I also think the different system for requisitions that Throne Agents use is appropriate for Palatines in a crossover game -- it exemplifies that they and astartes are from different factions and work by different rules, and there's even a rule in Rites of Battle that gives you more temp. influence the more requisition is assigned to the astartes.

Mjoellnir said:

Do we have to hand these relics out like candy to every SoB in a DW game, in order to 'make it fair'. How about we make it *different* and provide an SoB with something other than UT, making them a Space Marine with a curvier set of power armour?

ak-73 said:

Hero is nothing I would tie to rank, and any human who is supposed to be a match for a Space Marine is a hero by default (unless it's a villain). Also I would allow it as default gear for a Palatine in a Deathwatch game.

ak-73 said:

Unless she is in prayer, asking for protection. Anyway, the tricky part is getting in a position where you can do that because a Palatine is no slouch.

True.^^

Siranui said:

Okay, first of all, there are no Sisters of Battle in a Deathwatch game unless you make a mixed level game and then the balance doesn't matter anyway. There are only Palatines, Hierophants, Inquisitors, Interrogators and Crusaders who formerly were Sisters of Battle. And I advocate only handing the Mantle of Ophelia out to Palatines who are Sororitas heroes by default, at least according to their Codex. Of course I wouldn't like it if there was more than one, but that's something I would care about if it comes to that. Sororitas working alongside the Deathwatch should be rare. If you want to make something different, according to the newest rumours all sisters that generare faith are supposed to get a 6+ Invulnerable save. That would roughly equal a force field with a rating of 20. I'm very unsure that that would be a good replacement though....

It actually sounds far more interesting and unique than simply handing out a relic in order to make the SoB survivable via the same mechanic (UT) as Astartes, if you ask me!

I certainly wouldn't take issue at granting a 'force field' of faith protection with a level of -say- WP bonus. Given an unnatural WP, having a flat 10%-ish invulnerable save is cool and differentiates the character.

Mjoellnir said:

No, Heroine is a rank among the SoB, roughly the Space Marine Captain equivalent. An upgraded Palatine.

Alex

Siranui said:

I don't see a problem with handing out a relic to a special character who would be unique in the campaign world. And a force field save would even if allowed after the Rosarius that a smart Palatine would get ASAP still be incredibly unreliable.

ak-73 said:

Sorry, but you are wrong. The army list entry is called "Adepta Sororitas Heroine" and contains both the Palatine and her upgrade the Canoness. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440303a&prodId=prod1090096

Mjoellnir said:

Yeah, I misremembered that. Still I am not sure if I'd make it starting gear, especially since starting DW marines don't get access to meltaguns, etc either.

Alex

ak-73 said:

You shouldn't compare her to a starting DW-Marine. Compare her to a Watch Captain who gets an Iron Halo. A Watch Captain coordinates multiple kill-teams, that's roughly the same level of power a Palatine would wield at home in her order.

Mjoellnir said:

Yeah but the point is make the career start out with the Marines. A starting Deathwatch should also be better than what the PCs get, notably some skills are missing and Swift Attack.

The point it in making a "Junior" (freshly appointed if you will) Palatine. Anyway there is no point in making this career up before the August issue of WD.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Huh? Why do you want to improve the Marines further?

ak-73 said:

I think there's no point in waiting. We have the rules for Dark Heresy, and those are based on the 3rd edition Codex. Ruleswise it could happen that the Palatine is demoted to a Sister Superior for the Celestias (like the Dracon was demoted from a Dark Eldar HQ to a Sybarithe of the Kabalite Trueborn). Her role in the 3rd edition Codex command scheme of the Sisters was diminutive anyway. And after the Codex Grey Knights I don't want to know what could happen to them fluffwise.

Mjoellnir said:

I don't want to, I'm saying that normally Rank 1 Deathwatch Marines should have stuff like various Pilot skills, more Tactics, Demolitions as trained basic skills. Swift Attack is a consideration because most marines who come to the DW do have veteran status or should be close to that in my estimation.

But you got to leave room for improvement. For the same reason I'd make a rank 1 Palatine a bit weaker than in the TT so that by the time she gets to be rank 2 to 3, she's equivalent. Character growth and all.

Mjoellnir said:

I'm more optimistic there.

Alex

I don't particularly understand why astartes who join the Deathwatch would automatically be able to stab faster and be better drivers than regular mehrenes. Apparently anyone can join (to include random AWOLers and chaos marines according to the Black Shied fluff).

As to character growth... a palatine has already had 13000 xp worth of character growth, and there's still a bajillion worth of XP to go. I don't see the need to monkey around with these character's stats, particular to make their stats more like tabletop... can you imagine how retarded it would be if we told primaris psykers "Sorry, you have to lose all your pre-ascension psyker powers, and all you get is that wussy lightning power? Also, you can't wear power any more."

Deinos said:

That's not what has been suggested though.

1. I think all Marines should have a number of Vehicles skills.

2. The average DW recruit is probably Veteran level.

3. It's not about converting Ascension characters to DW, it's about allowing players to easily make Palatine, Inquisitor, Assassin PCs ready for play, WIth DW PCs you don't get to choose how to spend the entire 13,000 xp either, you don't get to choose your starting skills and talents. They are pre-configured and you get to spend only 1,000 xp. Now with those non-Marine careers, I'd leave them like 2,500 xp for char generation to allow for more varied non-Astartes starting PCs. You allocate them, record equipment and are about ready to go.

FFG has always been stressing how their individual product lines are independent. In that linhe of thinking, it makes sense to give DW its own set of non-Astartes careers, even if only for ease of generation of such characters (faster than using DH Ascension at the price of flexibility in configuration).

Alex

Deinos said:

That's not the point. The point is that any Marine should have swift attack, considering that mere DH characters will have it by rank 4, or whenever. The finest soldiers in the galaxy are actually less well trained than the average Guardsman. But that's fine, because it's a game and you need character development.

The palantine is written and designed for playing DH with, not DW. The games are distinct. The very concept that every palantine PC 'needs' an uber rare relic to even bother trying to compete completely illustrates the point.

Siranui said:

Why is a normal human trying to compete with Astartes at something that they will not be able to compete against?

A Palantine should be intelligent enough to know that she is head and shoulders above IG rabble and that she cannot compete against a squad of Astartes, let alone DW Astartes. Her usefulness lies in the very divergent knowledge and training she brings to the table, as well as access to non-traditional, for DW, resources. The only way a well trained normal person in power armor can compete with an Astartes is through overwhelming numbers or by using assets that Astartes lack.

True, but besides the point; which was that the idea is to create a 'proper' DW-compatible Palantine, and that simply giving every Palantine PC a relic in order to create compatibility is just fixing things with duct tape.

I never said anything about handing out relics to players. The Palantine has power armor and a brain, she should be using it.

Palantine? Can't compete with Astartes?

A 35 points HQ model? No, I beg to differ. In fact I think I should a Rank 1 Palatine should be a Junior Palatine because a RAW TT Palatine will does have better stats than Sternguards. Even if we take the Novel Marines factor into account, a Palatine in DW would have to be a Novel Palatine.

Seriously, she's good. For Siranui, here the stats comparison:

Palatine/Sternguard(the proper DW Marine equivalent in 40K)

WS 4/4
BS 5/4
S 3/4
T 3/4
W 2/1
I 4/4
A 2/2
Ld 9/9

So not as strong and tough but more skillful in shooting, double hits. In melee the marine will have a chance due to physical superiority. In long range the Palatine is clearly superior and the only equalizer the Sternguard has is his specialty ammo. He'll need to use vengeance rounds and pray it doesn't blow up in his face. The W 2 thing is what makes the Palatine better. Statwise she is more comparable to a Chaplain...

Alex

ak-73 said:

First, I view the TT stats as irrelevant. All they do is set a vague pecking order for a TT game that requires all units at a specific tier to be comparable to each other and better than those on a lower tier.

Second the response was to "the need" to hand a relic to a Palantine so she can compete physically with the Astartes.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Yeah but as I said a Palatine that accompanies a DW kill-team will be a 'Novel Palatine', therefore up to it. Especially gifted if you will.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I understand. However what do you think about my suggestion further up in the thread to have her be physically weaker than Astartes unless she spends a Fate Point so that she gets as tough/strong or even tougher/stronger than her male partners. I think it makes for an interesting dynamic when the Marines normally have to protect her a bit unless she decides to kick butts at which point she might have to save the whole kill-team. Power of faith and all that.

Alex

ak-73 said:

A Palatine that accompanies a DW kill-team should be smart enough and experienced enough to know when to duck. She shouldn't need to have her hand held or be coddled just because she's human. What should be special about her is the area's of expertise she has that are alien to the Astartes, not her lack of durability.

A Palatine is a scary, psycho-killer, zealot, woman in power armor. This, as terrifying as it is, should be the more approachable choice to another mortal than trying to approach and deal with a giant-out-of-legend-who-fought-beside-the-Emperor, wall of power armor, that you have grown up hearing tales about, and seeing statues, murals, and stained glass windows of, your entire life.

There are lots of advantages that a Sister has that need to be played up far more than any, in my opinion, silly idea of combat equality.

ak-73 said:

It's an interesting idea. It all depends on how you want the feel of a SoB to be. I would lean more toward over the top defensive abilities rather than offensive ones.

Like I said, I think the charm of playing a SoB in DW comes from the idea that they almost become the default face of the group. This is something which very well should be quite alien to her since normally they are, and consider themselves to be, terrors of the battle field. A Palatine who is running with a kill-team should realize how nightmarishly brutal and dangerous SM's are, above and beyond what notions or preconceptions she may have, she should rightfully be scared of them, as should anyone who sees them in action. I think this is where things would get interesting RP wise. How would a SoB react at seeing the true ferocity of Astartes in action? How would she react to the wide differences in doctrine and personality of the different chapters, the controlled chaos of a DW kill-team? Would she feel good about the Astartes or would seeing the true face of the Emperors progeny terrify her?

I seriously doubt a Sister-Palatine would feel "scared" to see an Astartes in action. Since Palatines and Astartes are easily equals in combat, should the Palatine be frightened to look in the mirror?

Also, I wasn't talking about "handing" the SoB anything... I was talking about an Ascension character using their influence to obtain items that would be useful for them.