bluntpencil2001 said:

Now, y'see, I'm not talking about hypothetically. I've actually done this in practice. On my webpage (linked below), is a document called Children of Isha, which contains an assortment of rules for different Craftworld Eldar troop types in Deathwatch, including Aspect Warriors with Squad Mode abilities (one attack pattern and once defensive stance each). I've tested them both in hypothetical situations and in actual play, and have found that enemies with squad mode abilities make for a distinct challenge, as suddenly these foes can act in a similarly drastic and decisive manner to the players.

It's one of the reasons I'm so strongly inclined towards making it a common (not standard, but not exactly rare either) feature of Tau Battlesuit Teams - the introduction of Squad Mode abilities to NPCs changes the dynamic of a combat considerably, and I regard that as desirable when dealing with races who employ highly-capable, intelligent, independent, tactically-minded elite troops.

It's not a matter of "are the individual troopers good enough to warrant these abilities?", but rather "will the addition of these abilities have the desired effect upon the combat?".

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Does this along with your recent post on Battlesuits mean we'll be seeing a "Greater Good" supplement?

P.S. Where is "Ex Scientia Omnissiah"?

Black_Kestrel said:

I've been working on a few things Tau related for my Deathwatch campaign, so it's likely that I'll put my work out for people to make use of once it's reached a reasonable state.

Black_Kestrel said:

P.S. Where is "Ex Scientia Omnissiah"?

On indefinite hold - as I was midway through writing it, I was invited to become a Freelancer for FFG, which has dominated much of my time over the last eighteen months. A lot of my more ambitious ideas that I was working on before that have been put into storage in case they become relevant to a later assignment (as was the case with Ork PCs and the Nova Cannon).

Siranui said:

(I like the way that 20 dudes assassinating an unarmed man in his pyjamas (and losing an $80 million secret helicopter in the process) has made the Navy SEAL the modern standard of badass*)

The difference is that no one said they could, while Marines are the only thing standing between humanity and destruction.

--

Incidentally, how do you engineer it so that Marines targets are always remarkably unguarded? Cause, I mean a Kill Team is 3-5 Marines, so that means you can never have more than 3-5 aspect warriors in one place, which seems low. I mean, what kind of targets of earth shattering importance are never worth more than a handful of troops to guard them?

*All right, so I'm just jealous that the SAS haven't killed anyone interesting recently.

AluminiumWolf said:

Are they? Where does it say that?

The IG are far more crucial than the Astartes will ever be, by sheer weight of numbers. A million troops spread between a million stars are not going to be able to hold the Imperium together.

(If it's secret, how do people know it was worth $80m?)

I appreciate that you have an imagery of what Astartes 'should' be in your mind, but it's not at all borne out by any canon, anywhere that I've seen. The Tabletop marine can be outfought by a squad of IG, whereas even novel marines are not even close to capable of the deeds you consider within their remit. Heck: Even the Primarchs can get vaped by titans or mere sniper fire in canon. Even looking at the extreme propaganda -space marine novels- there's nothing there that indicates a squad of marines can outfight and entire planet of combat troops in a massive brawl. Not even the system bears that out: 10 genestealers can rip apart ANY space marine in melee combat.

Marine targets remarkably unguarded? In what manner? You mean in reference to Deathwatch, rather than massed battle? For a start because they've been specially selected as appropriate. If a target is defended by three tank divisions and 800 aspect warriors, the kill-team probably get sent to do something more within their reach. You use a scalpel to sort out scalpel-sized problems. Deathwatch teams don't tend to be sent on missions that are deemed way out of their scope, because that's just... daft. The mission has already been deemed viable by the Watch Commander, long before the PCs ever hear about it.

Secondly; the type of targets that the Kill-team hit normally aren't particularly well defended anyway (relatively). HQs in areas seen as relatively 'safe' are only protected by a security platoon, because they need to be mobile and anything else is a waste of forces. A defender cannot plan their entire force deployment around the fact that they might suffer a rear-area surprise attack by an elite team from an organisation they'd never even heard of before. There are weak points, and it's assumed that missions tend to target those. Sometimes they won't even be 'known' weak points. And truth be told, every organisational structure has about a dozen critical components, any one of which is bound to be less-well-guarded: The leadership, communication nexus, fuel dump, critical bridges or roads, oil wells, tungsten reserves, railway junctions... the list goes on. Any centralised and organised military structure can be bought low with the correct application of an interdicting force. The secret is finding it, and managing to get troops there in sufficient numbers to do the job. If you deploy all your forces protecting all the critical support elements against the one-in-ten-thousand chance that the enemy might know about it and drop space marines there, you have no troops left for the front line.

Well, that makers of the Space Marine video game say this about the core fantasy of being a Space Marine:-

++++This is really about being that forceful hero, that confident character striding forth on the battlefield, being very conspicuous in bright blue and gold armour, being constantly surrounded by your enemies and having them know that you are coming and kind of having it strike fear in their hearts.++++

Which asks the question, should Space Marines have a fear rating?

Just as gribbly monsters are terrifying to humans, surely Marines scare the monkeys out of xeno scum.

--

A standard Blackhawk costs $40 million, so a secret squirrel stealth version probably costs far more, especially if it is a short production run. I mean, a B2 bomber costs $1.27 billion, or $2.87 billion if you count development costs. :0)

Siranui said:

I disagree. From a pure military power viewpoint you are right, of course.

But in my Deathwatch game, the Adeptus Astartes is more than that. They are the true caretakers of the Imperium, the inheritors of their father. Organizing the defense of the Imperium of Man in the end rests in their hand and they autonomously decide what needs to be done if things go bad.

They run the defense, even if informally, even if only by dealing with hotspots usually.

Much more importantly they are shining examples and overseers of this project at the same time.

One could argue that the Astartes are the most superfluous organization in the Imperium. There is nothing they do that another organization doesn't also do in some form.

In my game however, they are the Emperor's angels. Overseers and ideals turned flesh. If the Imperium is in danger in any way or form, they'll put their noses into it and people listen. And they'd not even be afraid of Inquisition or anything. Which hopefully would never be necessary.
And that's why in my game they are about the most indispensible organization. (Others, like Navigators, are too.)

Alex

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Siranui wins the internet.

AluminiumWolf said:

Erm... 20 years of canon fluff about Astartes, and all you've got there is some propaganda from a third party? Not very convincing, is it?!

If their armour does: Yes. BTW: We tend to allow those with a fear rating to automatically do their fear level in horde damage each round against all bar fearless hordes.

You'd be lucky to see change from a $100m if that's the way you're working it. There's not many PAVEhawks around, and aircraft prototypes cost truly vast sums. Still: $whatever well spent, if you ask me.

ak-73 said:

I see them as much more fickle, generally. Self-supporting and independent warrior-brotherhoods that -with some exceptions- have very little to do with the running or affairs of the Imperium, and certainly no united political sway (and hence very little political sway on the galactic scale). They have varying goals and priorities, and are perhaps best not depended on.

If your planet is under attack and you're the theatre commander, you'd petition nearby Chapters and cross your fingers to hope they either replied or some other Chapter turned up on your doorstep. But you wouldn't count on them being there for you and make your plans dependant on them until they were in place.

And then when they turn up, they might well act like prima donnas and decide to squabble with other marines, deem some duties too lowly for them for bizarre reasons, and generally make things a bit of a headache politically. You'd handle them with kid gloves and try to get them into combat and out of HQ ASAP.

Rather than being the central core of Imperial defence, I see them as an added bonus. An added bonus that wins campaigns, but not the mainstay of the Imperium, and far too rare a sight to ever be such.

It's like coaching a local amateur soccer team in a Sunday league, and one morning David Beckham and a couple of his megastar friends turn up and offer to play for you. Sure: They're going to win the match for you, but they're going to make ridiculous demands, have tantrums if they can't play their favourite position, and generally throw their weight around a bit. You'll be glad you've won the match, but you'll be kinda glad when they leave, too!

Siranui said:

In my game most chapter masters study their area of operations very closely and do what is necessary to keep the Imperium safe and sound. They may switch the their theatre(s) when information about a new hotspot may trickle in. Or their guard a sector. They deem a crusade as important and lend their forces to it. That kind of stuff. Chapter Master are chosen ones and they have a lot of firepower at their disposal. Among the Emperor's angels, they stand out. They are those among the regular Space Marines that can defeat a GK Paladin mano-a-mano.

And this behaviour that you describe, what looks cryptic if not erattic to mortals, is the result of the responsibilites on their shoulders. Neither the Navy nor the IG understand as well what needs to be done; it's the Astartes that have been watching over the Imperium ever since. They'll put their fat noses into whatever is necessary to get things done and to protect the legacy.

Alex

Oh yeah: The Chapter's consider themselves hip-deep in honour and duty. It's just from an external perspective they probably come across in a very different manner.

Back to the football example (well...Bloodbowl, really): Marines are wandering star players. It's the IG and the rest of the Imperium's forces that are the backbone.

I suspect that 'garrison' style Chapters have much closer ties with their local systems and a lot more political sway in the local area. And they are probably thought of as a lot more dependable.

ak-73 said:

1. Not necessarily, vehicle pilots are something of a quasi-speciality among the Astartes, if fluff is anything to go by. They tend to have Brothers who are dedicated tank drivers or Thunderhawk pilots, as apposed to allocating Space Marines to the job at random. Though they could probably perform some very basic driving, just nothing you'd ever want to depend on in combat, or really any situation where actual skill is a necessity (like flying a Thunderhawk in stormy weather, or on re-entry). They probably get extra training in how it works, to make up for the relatively inglorious task of being everyone else's taxi service.

2. It says so in the Deathwatch book that they're not veterans. Also, they're not veterans in the same sense as anyone else, compared to a normal human they are certainly, but for a marine they don't really get the honour of calling themselves true veterans until they're over a century. But this is where we're getting in to the realm of personal interpretation. And in my mind the Deathwatch doesn't care so much about whether you're a veteran, but that you have IT. And that IT is just something you have, and can't learn on your own, it's that little spark that marks you out from the rest of the group and makes you special. Sometimes you're just better than all the rest, and sometimes you're the Space Marine who's every bit as competant as all the rest, but there's just something different about you.

For example, I just don't think the typical Black Templar would fit in among the Deathwatch. They're just a bit too straight forward and blindly zealous, not being ones who like sealth or running from a fight, and of course dealing with psykers as is inevitable in the Deathwatch. Why I prefer playing a Techmarine Templar myself, they're already strange for one, and would be a bit more likely to be open minded enough for the group.

But that's just me.

Blood Pact said:

The problem in actual play is that players are being routinely assigned vehicles and there is not enough rank 1 marines able to handle them. I play in two online rounds and it happened in both of them. The same goes for my real life group. Rhinos, Bikes, Landspeeders... Marines should be able to steer them well enough. Perhaps some Astartes Pilot talent that gives basic proficiency?

Blood Pact said:

I would tend to stand my original statement: the average DW recruit is probably (near) veteran level on average, if only skill-wise. Don't forget that it is only 3 Rank increases (in theory) until Watch Captain level.

Alex