Okay, let's get serious. What do you think it'll take to make a Battle Sister(rather a Palatine, I guess) a workable PC in Deathwatch? By that I mean a custom PC class that starts at Rank1 and goes to Rank 8 and which has its own advancement scheme.

A couple of thoughts from me: if we presume Rank1 DW to be roughly Sternguard equivalents, then I say the SoB needs to have at least (actually more) 20 wounds given that a Palatine has W2 in the TT. Perhaps they should have about 30 (as a result of faith and the Emps benevolence)

Some faith powers that grant Unn. Tough or Str for the combat perhaps.

If we roll with the idea of giving them slightly less powerful Bolters and Power Armour, then we need Faith talents that will make their attacks deal significantly more damage or their armour shield them significantly better. (The point of giving them slightly nerfed weapons/armour isn't to make them second-class overall but only because of plausibility reasons: the hulking Space Marines' gear should be a tad more powerful by itself. It should be the sisters faith instead that more than compensates for that if they pray for it.)

Duty Unto Death as a talent. At least Swift Strike as a starting talent.

Suggestions anyone?

Alex

Palatines are EASILY on par with Deathwatch characters. SoB storm bolters are better than astartes ones, the sample ascension wargear makes them defensively on par, easily, to a spess mehrene (x2 toughness and base 10 armor instead of 8/10)... and, of course, the utter outrageousness of faith powers. They can actually get the "burn-quality" faith effects once per session, and sling around massive amounts of faith powers as well!

Spirit of the Martyr (I think that's the name) should let you give yourself and allies an extra +5 rending/impact defense, resulting in frenzied Khorne berserkers only able to weakly chip away at you over the course of many rounds, and sisters of battle provide a rare ability for astartes to actually reduce corruption and insanity that they would gain. Compare how anemic astartes defenses against crazy and corruption points are, vs throne agents defenses. A Palatine can give mass Unnatural Strength x3 (which becomes x4 for astartes), the ability for the group to heal 1d5 damage per kill while in a frenzy, and all sorts of stuff, via their virtual burned faith points.

The default Palatine is already incredibly awesome, and both they and DW chars start with 13k xp... so I don't see any angle on which the Palatine misses out.

Well then, how do we make a normal human as strong, tough, and capable as a space marine? going from rank 1... you get the idea.

Ignoring the possibility of rather powerful normal humans in power armor with better guns that exists in the accension books, such things should not be.

In Roleplaying games, not everything is equal. If you want to bring a Sister of Battle into Deathwatch go right ahead, that shouldn't mean the normal human and her frail human faults should all of a sudden be equal to the abilities of an Astartes.

I hope you don't get angry, or start flaming from that but as I've tried to say so many times, its the differences that can lead to good roleplay opportunities. So the SoB isn't as "everything" like a marine is, it just means she's got to be more judicious/cautious. She's got to find a place or something she can do in the group. It is not 'best' to just modify the character to be able to do anything the space marines can... thats boring as hell. You just have another space marine with a "bad time" once a month. No additional opportunities or difficulties for the group to overcome.

I won't go into the fluff aspects of anyone becoming as uber as a space marine. But just think about this: if it were possible, why have space marines in the first place?

(not taking into acount faith "powers" as those have already been stated.)

The real challenge and fun of incorporating a sister into a deathwatch game would be what heirichimo said.

Play up the differences. suddenly, the group of inhuman fighting machines have a human amongst them. Will this force them to take another look at themselves? Will her righteous faith inspire them or estrange them?

They know she can't take the same punishment they can, so will they shield her from harm or let her suffer the consequences of joining a kill team? Will she let them shield her from harm?

The role playing opportunities are immense, and I've considered doing this myself before, and I'm considering it for my next eventual Deathwatch game for my female player.

I personally would steer clear of both unnatural strength and toughness, for a start. It would be photocopying a Marine. As others keenly pointed out, SoBs lack the biogenetic tailoring of marines, but have more faith, and it would be making a mockery of TT stats to just give them those two unnatural traits. Instead, there's much to be said for unnatural Willpower instead, and for faith powers.

I'd also look at considering an extra Fate Point right from the start.

Siranui said:

I as thinking about UT or US at the ependiture of a fate point through faith points aka prayer. It's an interesting dynamic. Normally the Palatine would be more fragile than an Astartes. But like once or twice per session, she might be able to rock that way.

Alex

Deathwatch is a Space Marine Chapter ! Imagine the risks a leader would take by challenging this standard for a Battle Sister !
I like it ! Where are the rules concerning them to be found please ?

The same PDF for Palatine contains the Cloak of St. Asprira or whatever, right? Just hand that to them. Possibly a bit of a relic/specialized, but a reasonable way to just give the needed Unnatural Toughness (x2).

KommissarK said:

Well, I think they should redo Battle Sisters for RT, that's the right power level. For DW, I'd like simple stream-lined versions of Ascension classes. Ranging from Junior Palatine to what? Living Saint? Perhaps even an Inquisitor class, an assassin class, etc.

Doing the whole thing over and custom-tailored towards DW would be much better than trying to convert from Ascension imho.

Alex

Exactly. Just make it an 8-rank class, like the marines. Granted, there won't be a speciality choice unless half a dozen classes are created, but it's the best approach and synchs with DW.

I'm not into TT any more, and don't know too much about them, but based on earlier comments, standard marine characteristic generation with Unnatural Willpower, +5BS and +5WP would seem to fit well. +1 Fate point, too. Heck...maybe +2. That would more than make up for being down one unnatural stat.

I don't particularly see what is wrong with using a sister palatine as is. They both start with 13k, and are definitely balanced to play with DW chars...

Start her with a Rosarius to offset the lack of Unnatural Toughness...

They already have a piece of gear that gives them Unnatural Toughness x2, and another piece of gear (a fuzzy cape?) that adds 3 points of stacking armor to their power armor (for 10 all around instead of 8/10)... and its not limited to SoB light power armor, either.

I get that the mission statement here is "SoBs for Deathwatch," but why exactly couldn't someone just use the Ascension SoB instead of bending over backwards to make an entirely new class?

Bastard of Melbourne said:

That's being done. However since Deathwatch is a "seperate game", one would wonder if there wasn't a less kludgy solution. If you truly want to represent SoBs, you need to give them bolters of Astartes-equal level.

DH Ascension tends to be too skill heavy and from what I have heard character generation takes time. I'd like to see Ascension level classes that have been pre-packaged (to save some workload) and whose advances have been adjusted to DW experience point costs.

Alex

Bastard of Melbourne said:

Because it's Friday and we're bored?

Also: Because DH only shares mechanics with DW, and isn't exactly a compatible game.

Is there any reason why a squad of Celestians can't be permanently assigned to the Ascended Sororitas, a.k.a. the Palatine? In game terms, this would be a Horde with an unusually high magnitude for the number of individuals; I'm thinking around 25+ for a squad of nine Celestians. Seriously, when the normal humans of the Imperium go to war, don't they bring their own Hordes? If so, why can't that be reflected here?

-Kirov

if you are using the Blood of Martyrs Sister as presented. They wind up with about the same amount of skills as a Battle brother. They will have noticably less wounds however as they cost a high of amount of xp. Adding the 9 wounds they can earn over the career costs them 1800 xp of their 13000 giving them 18 to 22 wounds. They also will likley have a lot less talents than the Battle Brothers. Buying Faith Powers gets expensive also at 300 xp a pop. They will need a steady supply of Fate Points to make them work howver. I've played Deathwatch and I've played Dark Heresy, I'm not sure BoM Sisters will stack very well side by side with Battle brothers. The Battle Sister's one purpose is to bring cleansing to the Emperor's foes. Space Marines do that also and they do it better based on the rules. With a bit of tweaking you migth be able to make a functional career out of them but it will be focused.

andrewm9 said:

Yeah and that is the point: the Space Marine don't do it better than a Palatine according to the TT rules.

www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp

Add Faith Powers and Bolter and Power Armour and she is fine to go TT-wise. With 2 Wounds in the TT, she should like start out with 25 Wound Points in DW. It would not be "realistic" but at least you could rationalize it with the Emperor's blessing or sth like that. Oh and A2 would actually necessitate Swift Attack as starting skill. The good thing then would be that Lightning Attack would yet have to be learned upon Ascension to Heroine (A3), which btw has W 3 too.

Creating non-Astartes Careers for DW is just more cleanly than porting.

Alex

andrewm9 said:

Are you taking into account the Palatine stuff?

ak-73 said:

Wounds in the TT are a bit different from wounds in the RPG. A Chaos Sorcerer in the TT has 3 wounds and a Khorne Berzerker 1. In Mark of the Xenos both have 30. Also if we look at the tabletop Palatine wounds are worth less than Space Marine wounds because of Instant Death. A sarge with a plasma pistol, a vanguard veteran with a Relic Blade or a chapter champion have pretty good chances to kill her if she doesn't wear a Rosarius (even if she can take them with her). What I would see as the main benefit of a Palatine is the headstart in terms of skills. Your average sister of battle starts with 31 WS and BS. If she gets all of her enhancements she has 51 on Ascension Level where the average Marines starts on 41. Okay, then the Palatine can get +10 while the Marines can get +20 so in the end they will even out..... Personally I would give a Palatine who is supposed to work alongside Marines only best quality gear, a Mantle of Ophelia, a Rosarius and allow her access to up to three weapons. And the Marines would always get the mission objective to keep her in one piece.

I think balance is overrated. Space Marines are built to be superior to normal humans. While an incredibly skilled and dedicated human can be a match for one or a few standard battle brothers even they are usually screwed if they end up in melee with a Chaplain, Librarian or Captain. That's how it's supposed to be. Not everything is determined by efficiency. Otherwise Inquisitors would be less numerous in the TT than Space Marine chapters serfs. Find a good reason why a Palatine sticks around with a kill-team, that's all it takes.

Mjoellnir said:

Yeah but the Palatine doesn't get Unnatural Toughness, so that should pan out roughly. She'd have to fear a Heavy Bolter though.

Mjoellnir said:

Well a Palatine isn't a normal human.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Heresy begets Retribution (the Ascension Web Enhancement for Blood of Martyrs):

Mantle of Ophelia
This badge of office for high ranking Sisters of Battle has
sacred powers of protection. Exceptionally rare in the Calixis
Sector, these are prized among the Heroines of the Adepta
Sororitas and it is an instance of great importance that will see
one upon the battlefield.
A Throne Agent wearing a Mantle of Ophelia is treated as
having the Unnatural Toughness (x2) quality. This effect does
not stack with additional Unnatural Toughness.

ak-73 said:

She is an insanely skilled and dedicated human in power armour that is able to perform small miracles through her faith. But if a Marine gets his bare hand around her bare head and squeezes the result will still be an ugly mess.

Mjoellnir said:

Heroine? That would be in my estimation a Rank 4 or higher DW RPG Palatine. Renown Distinguished at least? Requisition what? Pretty high probably as it is a named Relic, it seems. Otoh, you probably want to see your Palatine party member frequently enough dressed in it. How about 35?

Mjoellnir said:

Unless she is in prayer, asking for protection. Anyway, the tricky part is getting in a position where you can do that because a Palatine is no slouch.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Or just give it to the Sororita like you give her Power Armor as starting gear And fluff it like "she's been entitled with the keeping of this relic when she was sent to play around with Deathwatch Kill-Teams", or something of sorts.