A few questions

By gaspar, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

1. Maester of the Sun
Response: If it is Summer, kneel Maester of the Sun and discard a card from your hand to save a character from being killed or discarded from play

Can i discard Darkstar from my hand and then put him into play, because he was discarded?

2. Question about icons: if i have attachment which gives me chosen icon until the end of phase and then Viper's Rage is played - which effect is dominating? Do I have chose icon, or not? And what if im gaining axe icon thanks to the plot Power of Faith - does Viper's Rage cancelling it too?

3. Martell's Fury plot, Game of Cyvasse event and other cards of that type - when they return character to the hand (or top of the deck) - do they return char with all duplicates or can i return only duplicate? And if character is returned to my hand - do I discard all his attachments as well?

4. Is Viper immune to Melissandre's ability (power on opponents characters do not count)

5. And finally - if Darkstar is already on dead pile - can he be put into play when discarded from hand? I guess he cannot be put into play and should be discarded, but friend has sort of different opinion :P

Thanks in advance for help.

1. Yes.

2. You simply add the icons up, like strength bonuses. +1 military icon - 1 military icon = 0 military icon. If the character has a printed icon, and it gains one via a card effect while a different effect takes one icon away, it still has 1 icon.

3. You can discard a duplicate to save your character from being returned to your hand or deck. If you choose not to do that, all duplicates and attachments are discarded when you return the card in question to your hand.

4. I am not a 100% on this, but I think since her ability is not targeting the Viper but instead modifies the rule framework for opponents, the Viper's immunity is not relevant.

5. Since he is unique, he's not allowed to enter play while there is a copy of him in the dead pile. Whack your friend, because this is obvious :)

gaspar said:

1. Maester of the Sun
Response: If it is Summer, kneel Maester of the Sun and discard a card from your hand to save a character from being killed or discarded from play

Can i discard Darkstar from my hand and then put him into play, because he was discarded?

2. Question about icons: if i have attachment which gives me chosen icon until the end of phase and then Viper's Rage is played - which effect is dominating? Do I have chose icon, or not? And what if im gaining axe icon thanks to the plot Power of Faith - does Viper's Rage cancelling it too?

3. Martell's Fury plot, Game of Cyvasse event and other cards of that type - when they return character to the hand (or top of the deck) - do they return char with all duplicates or can i return only duplicate? And if character is returned to my hand - do I discard all his attachments as well?

4. Is Viper immune to Melissandre's ability (power on opponents characters do not count)

5. And finally - if Darkstar is already on dead pile - can he be put into play when discarded from hand? I guess he cannot be put into play and should be discarded, but friend has sort of different opinion :P

Thanks in advance for help.

1. Yes

2. Any effect that gives you an icon counts as a +1 to that icon. Any effect that removes an icon counts as a -1 to that icon. So in your example, the attachment will give you +1, and The Viper's Rage will give you -1 for a grand total of 0. If you had both Rusted Sword and Power of Faith giving you MIL icon, then your character will still have the MIL icon, since 1 + 1 - 1 = 1. The same logic applies to keywords and crests too.

If you will end up with a number greater than 1, remember that characters cannot have more than 1 of each icon.

3. You return the character, and the controller of the character may choose to discard a duplicate to save the character from the effect.

4. Yes.

5. You are correct. The rules for Unique cards prevent Darkstar from coming into play.

gaspar said:

4. Is Viper immune to Melissandre's ability (power on opponents characters do not count)

No, he is not, because Mel's ability doesn't target TRV. It doesn't target the power tokens on him, either, and if it did, it wouldn't matter, because tokens on a character are not protected by that character's immunity, that's in the FAQ (see under "Scope of Immunity").

What Mel's ability does is change the framework rule that power on characters counts toward a player's power total. TRV's immunity doesn't help against such a rule change.

Ratatoskr said:

No, he is not, because Mel's ability doesn't target TRV. It doesn't target the power tokens on him, either, and if it did, it wouldn't matter, because tokens on a character are not protected by that character's immunity, that's in the FAQ (see under "Scope of Immunity").

What Mel's ability does is change the framework rule that power on characters counts toward a player's power total. TRV's immunity doesn't help against such a rule change.

The more straight-forward one is to simply look at what Mel's ability is acting on. You figure that out by looking at the subject of her ability text, which is "power (on opponent's characters)." Since the subject is "power," that's what her ability is considered to be acting directly upon. And, as Rat has pointed out, the "Scope of Immunity" entry in the FAQ says that a character's immunity does not stretch to protect the power counters on it.

(The reason I point out that little exercise is because it always works for determining the scope and applicability of a card's immunity. Recognizing when an ability is acting on a character as opposed to a framework rule is not always clear. For example, The Fox's Teeth reads "While The Fox's Teeth is attacking, only knelt characters may be declared as defenders." It is easy to think that this is changing the framework rule for character eligibility to be declared as defenders, but since the subject of the ability text is "characters," it is really working directly on the individual character's eligibility as a defender. Hence, "immune to character abilities" would allow a standing character to defend against an attacking Fox's Teeth.)

Saturnine said:

3. You can discard a duplicate to save your character from being returned to your hand or deck. If you choose not to do that, all duplicates and attachments are discarded when you return the card in question to your hand.

The rules do not say you can use a dupe to stop a card from being returned to your deck.

Has this been errata'd? If not, I think this statement is false.

Yes they do. "If one of your unique cards is about to be killed, discarded from play, or returned to your hand or deck, as a triggered “Response:” effect (see later), you may discard an attached duplicate to save the unique card from being killed, discarded, or returned to your hand or deck." Core set rules page 19.

I quote the rules under Duplicates:

"If one of your unique cards is about to be killed,
discarded from play, or returned to your hand
or deck, as a triggered “Response:” effect (see
later), you may discard an attached duplicate to
save the unique card from being killed, discarded,
or returned to your hand or deck."

I'm new to the game so I'm not sure if this had to be updated or not.

If you could not use duplicates in those cases, then "discard from play" and "return to your hand" actions or events would be much more powerful than actions or events that would kill a character for the sole purpose of removing characters and all of their duplicates from play.