Lynata said:

I'm still praying that was an omission.

Sebashaw said:

And that's entirely your perogative as GM in your campain, though without the Emperor and the perception that he is THE linchpin holding the Empire together, it really doesn't feel like you're playing 40k. Mind you, there are a lot of other games you could play without including the Emperor - Star Wars, Serenity - and those games can kick arse; (I've run both and had a blast at both) but why play the Grimdark Future of the 41st milenia without "He on Terra" and all that he represents?

There are things that make a 40k game stick out, and the Carrion Emperor is one of them.

@ Sebashaw: I still don't see how useful the Blighted Scholae would be if your top priority is restoring warp travel. They strike me as more of a intrigue/deceit-oriented bunch, which could be handy if you want a reign of terror or infiltrating various cults, but in the situation you describe the organization of choice would probably be the Templar Calixis. Note that the BS was a "tolerated device" for certain inquisitors already - and, perhaps, still is. After all, there is no guarantee the Golgenna coven was the only such project or that it was completely eradicated, is there?

It still doesn't matter much for blighted adepta in the AdSor, anyway. The Sisterhood is about as "puritan" as puritan goes. If that means they die for their principles, they die. The closest you can get would be to make a shadow version of them, but that would pretty much be a death cult + as I see it.

Jack of Tears said:

To me, WH40K is still a world of irony, of contradiction and satire, so, is not important that the Emperor is still on his throne, but the people who think that he is still there!

Are the Emperor a god? No, but people doesn't know this, they think he is.

The entire point of my idea is that ordinary citizen believe that happened some catastrophe, an alien invasion, an heretical revolt, and now it's all like before.

And acolytes must work harder to support this illusion. Because now, many more people know the dark secret: nobody know if outside of Calixis Sector there is still an Empire.

Maybe yes, and the signal from the beacon is only blocked to something in the Calixis Sector.

Maybe not.

Back to the topic: I don't think that in any circumstance a Battle Sister became a prostitute.

In general, I never thought to Sororitas as prostitutes.

At least, Order Famulos and Sabine can act like concubine, if want take the Dune concepts.

And I don't like the new Faith system and new the boundless Deathwatch.

I can see concubine for only rare and much needed cases for only one branch of the sisters. That is to only make sure the genes are pure and if they do not do this, then the family line would die. Bad things will happen to the empire if that family line dies. Then and only then can I see a concubine put into place. Even with that I would imagine the nun in question would politely be force out of the organization for her willing sacrifice. Which will suck for the former nun in question as there will be a new nun to take her former job and you know that new nun will make sure the former nun gets the "job" done.

That could make a interesting elite advancement. A former nun who had to perform a task for the greater good of the empire at the cost of losing membership to the adepta. Still in good terms, but still that is like leaving your home and never to come back ever again. Not even to visit.

Snowman0147 said:

Why wouldn't they just get any other female of sufficient purity, though? The Schola has plenty more to offer - just take one of the clerks. If it's just about breeding, the mother doesn't really need to have superior marks in religious studies, combat training, high education, etc pp.

The one branch in the Sisterhood where I could see the potential for such relationships would be the Sisters Sabine, simply due to the situations they could get themselves into when attempting to infiltrate a newly discovered world ...

Maybe they are too far away from the Schola? I don't know, but like I said before. It would be a extremely rare thing that is vital. Do or die. Just saying if you got billions of worlds, then chances are there is going to be one nun to make the call in order to save the family line and thus help the empire. It is not pretty, not really wanted by the nun and her organization, but does it have to be done? Yes it does. I mean this is litterally when all other options had failed.

@ Lynata: as I see it, the Imperium is a huge place, and there is potential for pretty much anything - although admittedly some things are quite rare. Personally, I look at it from two perspectives - a sister may get into such a situation either because her mission in the Sororitas involves it, or because of who she is. A sister Sabine and possibly a Famula could "marry" (with or without the quote marks) into a powerful family in order to do her work in cultures where an outsider wouldn't have that opportunity. In that case, she still works for the order and would likely keep her position and contacts. On the other hand, a noble-born sister is still a scion of her bloodline in genes if not status, and there might be cases where a dynastic marriage or even a simple relationship can be of great value to the Imperium - more than her service in the orders. It may be distasteful to her, sure, but it is still service to the Emperor. In that case, I suppose she will be "retired" or expelled from her order, depending on the order itself and her previous behavior. It will probably be a tragic situation for her, but duty can sometimes be cruel.

Lynata said:

Because the DNA of each human is nearly unique.

Add to this random mutations and you can understand why a Sister fits better than other candidates.

The_Shaman said:

Though the FFG books are not GW canon, I actually find their description of the Famulous to be very fitting, and what I would have imagined them to work as well.

A Sister Sabine, on the other hand? That is more plausible, as the character in question essentially dons a mask and plays a role that has to be upheld for the duration of the mission. The normal rules of the Adepta Sororitas do not apply here, at least as far as public appearance is concerned.

The_Shaman said:

And yes, the Imperium is a big place, but an important thing to remember is that the Sisterhood works the same everywhere, as it traces back its doctrines and rules to one single place. Between all those different Marine Chapters and Guard Regiments and so on which all have their own personality and culture, this organization is "the odd man out", if you will. And that is according to Andy Hoare.

Sebashaw said:

That's actually one of the aspects that got me to like them as an army - their humanity. DNA doesn't matter. In theory, every healthy female can become a Sister. All that makes them special is, in the end, just years of training and indoctrination, and the best equipment that the Adeptus Mechanicus can provide. And just like every ordinary girl could become a Sister, she could instead not do so and instead get wed to some noble. As that would sound much more logical, given that this spares the Holy Orders the completely unnecessary and unprofitable loss of a valuable member.

Lynata said:

So, you can control better a bloodline if some members are in your organization, I think.

And, I agree, I like Sisters of Battle for the same reasons.

Jack of Tears said:

I'm pretty sure each edition's core rulebook has stated the singular hope for mankind isn't that the Emperor will awaken and save everybody, or that the surviving primarchs will... but that humanity will evolve into a fully psychic race. Another big hope is finding a lost STC.

As such, that humanity may one day advance beyond needing the Emperor and the Imperium isn't contrary to 40k's themes... it is, in fact, the theme that all editions have in common!

Lynata said:

She gains position and status. In one case, she is a councelor, in the other, a queen. Her influence would become much stronger, and she would gain power over any rivals who compete with her to the ear of the powerholder. Sometimes, a system may be so insular that an outsider would have very low chances to influence it, and joining the noble stratum (marriage is likely to be the easiest way, although in some systems adoption could also work) would be necessary for the sister to perform her duties.

Please note, what I am suggesting here and below are by no means common situations. They are, in fact, extremely unlikely - just not impossible.

Lynata said:

If it were known in advance, sure, but the need of her can appear after she has joined the Sororitas. Noble families may be all but wiped out or found to lack acceptable scions due to other reasons. In the vast majority of cases, this would not even be considered - but at times, her services outside the sisterhood may be of much higher value to the Throne. Also, what if she is simply a novice, not yet taken all her vows (as in the low ranks of the IH career)?

Lynata said:

I wonder if that really is the case - where is that expressly stated? Considering how many small missions there are in the galaxy, there is plenty of time for deviations where contact has been lost, which happens every now and then due to warp storms, wars, or simple distance. Yes, these would likely be fairly minor, but none at all in an organization spread across the galaxy for five millenia?

I'd like to know their genetic program.

The_Shaman said:

She'd also become entangled in a web of power games between her House and its rival, dragging the entire Sisterhood right into it and compromising its standing as a neutral arbiter between the factions... Now, this is just my conjecture, but personally I think there's too many things speaking against it, both from the Order's own rules as well as political reasons.

I tend to see the subject of marriages or similar relationships like I see the "Chaos is not always evil" debate in the Black Crusade subforum - when GW some day introduces an official example, then I will change my opinion. Until that day, the representation of the Sororitas in the studio material has been "too narrow" for me to allow such deviations from the norm.

The_Shaman said:

I'd say that someone who is eligible for hereditary succession would not be considered to enter the Schola. Why would she, if she's not an orphan but has a noble House that can take care of her?

Though I must add that this is pretty much a problem that only cropped up with FFG's interpretation of the setting, for GW canon specifically stated only orphans of Imperial servants may join up. Though I suppose one could extend this ruling to include orphans of Imperial nobles, for whatever reason - perhaps that child would be the lone survivor of a noble House that got crushed in a local civil war, and was given over to the Ecclesiarchy as a means of "removing her from play" without killing her. This actually happened in Medieval Europe, with noble daughters becoming nuns.

That said, if such a child could become a threat later on - i.e. the possibility of a return from this "exile" would exist - I'd say she would be killed right away by her parents' rivals. Again, just my thoughts concerning the matter. Anyways, history has shown that there can always be another heir. If the original bloodline has perished then you simply switch to the noble's brother's/sister's/uncle's/aunt's/etc family, and I'd say that the Adeptus Terra can trace back a bloodline by many generations (it just takes time, heh).

Hmm, this might actually make the basis for an interesting campaign ...

The_Shaman said:

If you go by GW canon, the Sisterhood is much smaller than many people on these forums believe. Most convents scattered throughout the galaxy seem to be meant primarily as temporary bases - though "temporary" may well mean several centuries, depending on the Order's task, whereas some Ordos Minoris have indeed taken up a permanent residence at a particularly important place. That said, the Adepta Sororitas are, from all we have read about them so far, pretty big on adhering to protocol and written laws, and they have a huge tome that contains thousands of rules that have to be preserved and have remained unchanged from the very days of their founding - in essence, they all adhere to the same big book, with each Order occasionally adding stuff to it, but never removing things (there was a pretty funny incident involving the Repressor tanks, which were at first only used by a single Order, until internal protests lead to them being issued to everyone).

This is an excerpt from a text written by Andy; iirc it was originally printed in a White Dwarf article:

"Each of the six Orders Militant has its primary base in either the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VlI or the Convent Prioris on Terra. These convents are massive fortresses, housing many tens of thousands of the Orders' Sisters and servants, and form the administrative, military and religious heart of each Order.

As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra, or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.

It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.

Despite the lack of significant divergences between the Orders Militant in terms of organisation and combat doctrine, there is a degree of variance to be found within the teachings of the founders of the Orders, which tends to reflect the outlook of each Founding Saint. For example, the Sisters of the Order of Our Martyred Lady can be said to reflect the vengeful nature of their patron, Saint Katherine, while the Sisters of the Order the Bloody Rose share the brooding, quick to anger nature of Saint Mina."

The larger part of this article focuses on the Orders Militant (given that the Sisters of the Orders Famulous don't really live together but rather go apart to serve a different noble House each, once their training is concluded), but I would not see any reason for why the non-militant Orders would be different. They all originate from the same place.

Yeah, the cases where an OF would become "officially entangled" would be extremely rare. In most cases, as you say, it would be considered inappropriate or harmful. Just not all cases, is what I'm driving at:) .

Ok, so as I see it the AdSor doesn't have major differences in doctrine or practice, but let's keep in mind this is comparison to the Imperial Guard (which features regiments as different as the Mordians, Valhallans, Catachans, Savlars, DKoK, and Karaks) or even the Adeptus Astartes. Still, some more minor differences or local traditions may survive - I'd say like the differences between Codex Astartes SM chapters such as Ultramarines, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists, or UM second founding successors? They have a pretty exhaustive book of rules and rites, too .

By the way, did GW specify the Scholae were the only recruitment source of the AdSor, or just the main one? Dark Heresy allows them a range of background options, maybe they took an idea from somewhere else. Still, if we have sisters from Imperial noble families (even if they are considered removed from the family after being sent to the mission) or a feral world, this opens the door for somewhat more unorthodox sisters. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another issue to consider - personally, within the limtis of a RPG (where the characters are supposed to be more or less unorthodox) I can see it working well.

The_Shaman said:

The only one:

"Orphans raised by the Schola Progenium, Battle Sisters are well disciplined and highly devoted to the Emperor."
- 3E, C:WH, p34

"They are recruited from the fastest, strongest and most adept individuals to be raised by the Schola Progenium."
- 2E, WD211, p55

The_Shaman said:

I just think the FFG writers went with what they thought would be considered "coolest" for the game by the majority of players - much like with the bolter and Faith Power inflation, Marines getting better gear, etc. Just as with lots of Black Library novels, there's just a number of details where the RPG differs from GW studio canon, either due to missing knowledge or because the authors thought it'd be better that way. Then we have people like me who campaign for "staying true to the core" and pester their GMs with background info or houserule suggestions.

Yet, as we can see right here, there's quite a number of people who appreciate this increased level of freedom that the RPG offers. Of course, the idea of "unorthodox Sisters" does not sit well with me personally (I think it would take away from their essence), but if everyone in your group thinks this would make for a better game and more fun, why not? I wouldn't even mind the "SoB Brothel" the thread was originally about. I'm just here to provide bits of fluff just in case someone is interested how things are meant to work as per the people in charge of the larger setting (and maybe raise the public perception towards the Adepta Sororitas ).

Eh... while sure SoBs were conceived of as being utterly uniform Schola origin a few editions ago, the same is true of inquisitors, stormtroopers, etc... vindicare would be all raised from children and all mind wiped, and so on.

GW has made it CRYSTAL clear how Sisters of Battle work in the supposedly greater setting -- they're the Worfs, who only exist as punching bags to make other factions seem more credible and antagonist.

Just one note we should bear in mind: Adepta Sororitas =/= Sisters of Battle. Its just not. All Sororitas are 'nuns' in the sense of being dedicated to serving the church as laymembers. But not all Sororitas are bolter-wielding angels of righteous retribution. Some are clerks. Some are teachers. Some are diplomats. Some are nurses. Some study xeno languages. You just CAN'T drop them all in same category and say that they are all alike and all follow the exact same set of rules.

That being said I find the idea of 'Order of Red Lantern' quite unlikely for the simple reason that Ecclesiarchy, if they wished it done, has easier and more-cost-effective ways to make it done. Send a highly trained Famulous or other suitable agent to infiltrate into local sex-traffic from the business (top) end of it. Take over the business and replace the key personnel with your own agents. Implant hidden cameras and microphones into rooms and/or working girls heads. There you go. No need for specially trained prostitutes or wasting highly trained Sororitas personnel in menial services.

I see the Imperial Cult as a religion very different from Christianity. Christian faith is a religion of absolute rules. Imperial Cult is one of sacrifice. Emperor himself sacrificed everything to guard over the humanity and his servants strive to be as perfect examples of selfless sacrifice as he is. Whereas in Christianity concepts of purity and sin are used as absolute values derived from ten commandments in Imperial Cult there is no commandments. In Imperial Cult purity and sin are values derived from the actual, concrete presence of Chaos and the perceived need to fight it with sacrifices. In Christian faith a nun is committing a sin by taking a lover because ten commandments forbid sexuality between people who are not married. The sin thus commited is derived from direct Word of God saying "neither you shall commit adultery" and is absolute. In Imperial Cult it is not. In Imperial Cult I can easily see that most nuns would vow not to take lovers (sacrifice their sexuality in order to better serve the Emperor) and the sin committed if she doesn't take the vow is not absolute in any sense. This is actually why I believe that while a vast majority of Sororitas are in fact both chaste and celibate not ALL are.

However, this doesn't suddenly turn all the Sororitas into potential sex-goddesses. Far from it. Most of the one who might not have take up actual vows of chastity are still limited by the practical constrains like training and working 12 hours a day with other women, then maintaining their gear and housing for 2 hours, praying for another 2 and then being just too tired to think of anything but sleeping.

The forementioned "Religion of Sacrifice" might also be the part of why the Sisters do dress in sexualized manner. It might be a sort of ritual flaunting intended to show the whole world how much they sacrificed for the Emperor and Mankind. In earlier days when human sacrifices were common in earthly religions of our Terra it was often the young, the beautiful and the virgin to be sacrificed to gods instead of the old, the ugly and the perverted...

I would suggest another compromise

All Sisters (Sisters of Battle, Sisters Famula, Sisters of Telephone, all Sisters), sworn vows of chastity and celibacy, and other vows.

Like: "You can't have your hair in any color, except blacks, in our Order."

Or: "You can't speak with cats in our Order."

And: "If you don't finish your suppe, you go out of window!" (Se non mangi la minestra, vai fuori dalla finestra.)

But, maybe old Sisters know that all Sisters need some break sometime and permit them to suspend some vow.

Maybe like a reward.

But I think that celibacy is not suspendable.

Polaria said:

That depends on what rules you mean, though. As Andy wrote, they all trace back their roots to a single place with a single set of rules for everyone, and they all undergo the same basic education and combat training in the Schola Progenium. Whilst I would say that the non-militant Orders would differ in spirit, I do not think that their rules would be different from one another.

Note that their book of laws and dogmas is called "Rule of Sororitas", not "Rule of Sisters of Battle".

Polaria said:

I would not be so sure about that. From how I understand the setting, the Ecclesiarchy is generally accepted to be the official interpreter of the Emperor's divine will, so if the Ecclesiarch proclaims something, that's just as good as a word from Him on Terra, as far as the faithful are concerned. Besides, would not the very real existence of Chaos and the results of falling to sin just provide all the more reason to stick to such regulations?

As you said, the Imperial Cult is one of sacrifice - I would say that the Adepta Sororitas, being His most devout servants - would sacrifice everything in their line of duty. This includes such things as taking a lover, for a multitude of reasons that can be derived from the fluff (no time for it, convent rules/isolation, goes against the principle of sacrifice, disrupts the link between a Sister and her Order, love is reserved for the Emperor, etc).

Also, judging from what we have seen so far of the Rule of Sororitas, I daresay that the Sisters are pretty big about absolute rules.

Here's a couple examples, from the same article I already quoted of:

Should any Sister, in her deeds, words or thoughts, in peace or at war in any way commit a sin, she should willingly and immediately make her fault known to her Superior, to make amends with a pure heart. And if she does not usually fail in this matter, let her be given but a week's penance but if her sin is great let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer, nor fight the Emperor's foes at their side. Let her go all but alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the penitent hood and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the field of battle.
Rule CCCLII, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume VI

So that she may it all times carry out her sacred duties to her Order and Our Lord the Emperor, it is fitting that all Sisters obey their Superior, strictly and in all things. As soon as an order is issued by a Superior, that order should be carried out as if the blessed Dominica herself had commanded it, for it is written - 'Her will be done'.
Rule CCXXXIX, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume XXV

Let it be known to all present and future Sisters of our Order that they must fast at the High Vigils of Saint Thor, Saint Aspira, Saint Jason, Saint Orlanda, Saint Dolan and Saint Constantine of Alamar. Upon the Holy Days of Saint Gherick the Confessor, Saint Decessio and Saint Lucius of Agatha, let them meditate. Let them fast for not less than five days preceding the Most Holy Days of Our Founding Sisters, Saints Dominica, Katherine. Silvana, Mina, Lucia and Arabella. Let them observe silence for the vigils of Saint Capilene, Saint Josmane and Saint Lacena. Upon the Low Days of Saints Yamalla and Corvus the Sabines, Saint Tomasi, Saint Dufaux and most especially Saint Josina, they should both fast and maintain silence, and upon the Days of Saint Praxedes. Saint Kozak and Saint Verevya they should meditate upon martyrdom. Upon the Feast of Saint Jasone, they must fast, but may consider themselves at liberty between matins and vespers.
Rule DCCLXXXV, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume XII

Polaria said:

I don't know. This very topic is pretty much a Pandora's Box, imo. As if there's not enough rule #34 on the subject yet.

I admit, I like absolutes in my 40k. The entire galaxy is grimdark, all of Chaos is evil, there are no female Space Marines, and all Sororitas are chaste. You get the idea. For me, this "lack of freedom" has become a defining aspect of the setting that sets it apart from most others, and I try to have it replicated in the games where I play or the things that I write. Personally, I do not see this as a limitation for my imagination, it just means that one has to be a bit more careful to explain deviations, or work around the issue by substituting one element with another whilst preserving the basic idea (such as, in this topic, simply letting an Inquisitor handle the brothel instead of the Ecclesiarchy, or by involving a local cult of worshippers instead of the SoB).

Ok, now I can understand you better.
I prefer confusion, contraddiction, paradox, incoherence and ambiguity.
Not the war between Good and Evil, but between Dictatorship and Anarchy.

Evil agains Evil; and you must choose the lesser evil.

Ah, it's not that bad with me. Let's just say that I like confusions and contradictions just as much - but not everywhere. There are certain constants that I "need" to have unchanged.

In a way, the "Evil against Lesser Evil" theme is such an absolute as well. I don't think I would have a lot of fun playing a "whiteknight paladin" game just because we're fighting for the Imperium, if you catch my drift.

Sorry if my previous statement was a bit unclear/confusing.

@Lynata

The Adeptus Sororitas sure fast a lot.

No sex AND no food...

I guess their are always drawbacks, even if you are:

THE MOST BAD*SS B*TCHES IN THE GALAXY!!!

Grinnenstadt said:

Well their power armour is prety slinky, certainly not bulky, so they have to fast to be skinny enough to get into it!