Sebashaw said:

I think it's pretty clear. It is about surrendering one's body and soul to service Him - and Him alone.

Taking a lover would mean the same as if your love was not reserved for the Emperor. Engaging in carnal pleasures without love on the other hand is clearly breaking the core idea of "penitence, hardship and deprivation".

Considering the extreme variances of dogma within the Ecclesiarchy, I think it's safe to say that, depending on the region, some of the clergy may have wives, husbands or concubines - yet from all we have ever heard of the Sisterhood with its unified doctrine, traced back to the "no males allowed" shrine of San Leor (Orleans...), I really, really, really do not see any room to turn them into temple whores.

Just my two Thrones on the subject, accompanied by the respective fluff quotes leading to this stance. FFG's Sororitas already differ slightly from the ones by GW, so I guess you'd be free to modify them further if you think it makes for a better game for your group.

the 8 spider said:

Not really.

"These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death - absolution."
- Codex : Witch Hunters

Absolution = death. The Oath of Repentence basically makes the Sister taking the vow a "walking dead". For all accounts and purposes, for her fellow Sisters she now numbers amongst the Order's casualties even though she still lives. This is also nicely depicted in the novel Faith & Fire - a good read for anyone seeking inspiration considering the Sisterhood.

Lynata said:

And how does that preclude sex with someone? Especially if one does it as duty to the E, and merely as part of service to the cause; as a professional act, rather than a personal one?

It doesn't at all.

Hardship and deprivation in the service of the Emperor fits pretty neatly with sleeping with fat politicians for the good of the Imperium to my mind. It's not like it's not a line that hasn't been used before, after all.

As I said before: considering the whole blatant twisting of the rules with the 'no men under arms' thing, we've seen exactly how such written regulations are twisted and perverted in order to justify the favoured course of action.

I personally don't like the idea of an intelligence gathering sisterhood who gets their humint by humping for about twenty different reasons; but 'because the rules kind-of-but-don't-explicitly prevent us from doing so' is not one of them.

Siranui said:

Waste of human resources, and conflicting with the Sisterhood's history. So why not just look elsewhere? Seems to be the obvious way to go.

I had not talked about prostitution, but about Sisterhood in general.

Maybe, during Vandire's age, there was a Order of Prostitutes, and after it may has been divided from main Adepta Sororitas, but it could still exists.
Like The Devayne Incorporation.

Perhaps, you could use Blighted Schola and old Adepta Sororitas to represent them.

I think this is an utterly brilliant idea. 40k is nothing if not bleak beyond absurdity and verging on surreal. Prostitute nuns certainly fits in there.

The Ordo Amare

During the reign of Vandire any Daughter of the Emperor who were found to have broken their vow of chastity were stripped of their rank and forced into prostitution. Vandire ruled that lying with these forsaken Sisters was no sin, and thus many clergy saw fit to take advantage of the offer. This was extrememly deleterious to the forsaken sisters, many of whom died in bed, destroyed physically and mentally.

Some however, took on their punishment as a penance, and it was after a forsaken sister disclosed the plans of an assassination plot by a group of solar archbshops to the sisterhood that the uses of the so called 'Ordo Amare' was seen.

To this day a small number of Sisterhood graduates are inducted into the ordo, acting as lovers and consorts to the Imperium's great and powerful, ever the while disclosing secrets and indescrecions to the Ministorum.

Actually, I had assumed they were tricked into "loving" Vandire specifically due to believing him the embodiment of the Emperor. While I think the idea of Sister of Brothels to be... well, heretical (and nearly nothing does), they do wear needlessly sexualized power armor, along with makeup and lipstick. They stem from an order of battle-courtesans, and still DRESS like battle-courtesans. They obviously go out of their way to look attractive in a universe where nearly everyone is incredibly bald, haggard, and with a mountain of cybernetics randomly sticking out of them. Considering part of their role is to be bodyguards for powerful ecclesiarchs and inquisitors and such, they probably have an odd relationship with their charges, as I can't think whoever else they'd be prettying themselves up for.

Well, in the end people will do whatever they want to do, and it is clear that there are those here with distinctly different ideas of what a Holy Sister should be - so more power to them, so long as it stays out of my game.

I still fail to understand why people are pushing for this to be a branch of the Sororitas as opposed to the other options? How does making this a job of the Sisters improve your game in a way that having them be non sisters doesn't?

... beyond absurdity and verging on surreal. Prostitute nuns certainly fits in there.

Using catholic style nuns in this way might seem a bit surreal, but other religions have had holy brothels in the past, right here on earth. The purpose of those institutions was to provide for the physical and emotional needs of men ... a holy, charitable kind of institution. So, while the idea might seem bizarre for a westerner, they have existed. That said, the Emperor is not the kind of god those temples were build around and it seems silly to try and shoehorn this idea into his church.

A group working under command of the Inquisition could be made up of very religious woman, who do indeed believe they are sacrificing their bodies this way for the Emperor, and willingly do so. Nuns are not the only women with faith and love for He on Terra.

Would the Adepta Sororitas do such a thing on any formalized and institutionalized way whatsoever: HELL NO!!

Would an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor of less than frothing disposition set up something like this on a much smaller scale, probably keeping the true nature of their master hidden? Oh yeah, very possible.

It is likewise possible that a particularly far-sighted Rogue Trader dynasty might set up such an organization to keep tabs on their political and business rivals back on important worlds.

The Ecclesiarchy might be secret backers of such a program in certain "morally flexible" subsectors of Imperial space, but I seriously doubt it on any large scale. The Commissariat and Departmento Munitorium have no need of such an arrangement, making use of the black trenchcoats and peak-caps to achieve their ends. The Officio Assassinourum likewise has no need of such resources: By the time they get involved the targets are already identified and condemned by the High Lords of Terra. The Adeptus Arbites might make use of such a program, but they would not use their Troopers and Judges for such demeaning tasks: They would utilize the condemned and then cut a deal under the table to serve as eyes and ears for the Emperor's Law "or ELSE!" No other official Imperial institutions have the authority to set up such a network, although it is quite possible to see individual planetary Enforcer organizations or noble houses operate "courtesan spys", especially on worlds such as Malfi and Scintilla. Doing the same thing on Maccabeus Quintus would likely just get everyone condemned as heretics and burnt...

Lynata said:

The Imperium makes the same mistakes repeatedly,

There's no such thing as a waste of human resources in the Imperium, but essentially I agree that the job could be better carried out by other organisations. It's just that I utterly refuse to buy that the organisation wouldn't bend it's own rules if they thought that the end justified the means, or for moralistic reasons, given both the prior history and the entire grimdark hypocritical setting.

As another idea, stemming from this, how about a 'holy' sisterhood[/brotherhood!] of some other type that exists to provide consorts and 'comforts' to members of the church and other senior political figures, such as politicians, Inquisitors and their retinue and other important figures. The goal of the order is to provide to their *cough* needs safely; assuring that they cannot be compromised by 'kiss and tell' mistresses, blackmailed or otherwise caught in a honey trap, won't be poisoned/murdered/given herpes by their consort, and aren't going to be corrupted by a nefarious mistress, nor will pillow-talk be spread any further. The sisters/brothers are trained to fufil needs and are sworn to terrifying oaths of secrecy to ensure what goes on and is said in the bedroom stays there.

Deinos said:

I couldn't say I have ever noticed makeup, though. Some images depict them with lipstick, but that's pretty much it. Scarring and bionics for the veterans are also a common sight, yet I think the cold and stern facial expression (which is probably less prevalent in the non-militant Orders) does an even better job at keeping male suitors at bay, not to mention potential rumours about their secret practices. Faith & Fire had a pretty amusing part regarding some naval crews and what they believed the Sisters to do with men: "Please don't eat us!"

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

I would agree with those who say the Sisters would certainly not be "workers" in any brothel. There are a great many cults within the Imperium, and some might have something like that - but the Sororitas, and especially the Orders Militant, just aren't the right women for the job. On the other hand, that doesn't mean they will pick up the flamers and go purge everyone when they do hear of one. In fact, I think some of the non-militant orders are quite likely to take interest in such establishments.

For example, Ordo Famulous sisters will likely want to know where the young (or not-so-young) scions of nobility spend their free time. At the very least, they would be aware of any mistresses, concubines and other companions Important People take - after all, they are supposed to be quite knowledgeable about bloodlines, and take great pains to keep tabs on and occasionally leash the imperial aristocracy. A OF sister may even arrange things so that she is managing the establishment, the better to be able to gather information and influence who is having relationships with who. An affair might lead to a break-up that pushes some in just the right arms... or provide blackmail material to intimidate someone into obedience.

On the other hand, sisters of the Ordo Hospitaller (especially in war zones) will want to make sure any such places do not cause problems in their area of expertise. The last thing an OH mission attached to a Imperial Guard force wants to have to deal with is a STD epidemics. In fact, they might want to take it a step further and make sure any such places are clean spiritually (well, as much as possible) as well. They would likely see it as distasteful, but necessary and within their field of responsibility. Now, granted, some missions might want to uproot such places completely and not bother, but sometimes it is a necessary evil.

That is an interesting idea that did not occur to me as well. Kudos.

The Bene Gesserit in Frank Herbert's Dune, on which the Sororitas are at least partly based, were also sending out women to join the various powerhouses as courtiers and diplomats.

Well, I'm not so sure about all the orders, but the Ordo Famulous reads pretty much like a Bene Gesserit reskin. The character illustration in Blood of Martyrs certainly looks the part.

Speaking of Blood of Martyrs and a somewhat off-topic issue, in the description of the Ordo Famulous it mentioned a certain Ordo Sabine, which was tasked with proselytizing and uplifting in more barbarous worlds.Considering the legend of the Romans abducting the Sabine women, is it going too far to extrapolate that perhaps these sisters occasionally become consorts or lovers of tribal leaders?

from france

totally off topics but simple curiosity

kudos???? what does it means? what tongues it is? las time i heard something similar was with a live album nightwish withe the fist singer.is it the same word?

Oh, that is just a term of appreciation, like "good job" or "nice!"

It seems to originate in the English language, but I have so far only noticed it in internet slang.

Fun fact: To German it would get translated as "Chapeau!", which likely means a totally different thing in its French origin - though you could also say "Hats off!", then it would make sense again.

Isn't it nice to see how closely languages seem to be related sometimes?

Lynata said:

Like they all came from some ancient, dead language Hmmm.....

but for topic; I suppose Nuns used to do the whoring back in the day; mostly as spies for the Pope; The woman lead in "Hudson Hawk" was a undercover nun (not sure if she got it on) and more recently, a French movie about a noble coming back from New-France with a Mohawk (The indian-not a haircut) to hunt some large wolf who was terrorizing a village; in the movie, a sercretive woman (who helped the nolbe a couple of times) is revealed to be a 'whoring nun' ,if you allow the expression, for the count of some Cardinal or the Holy Seat. Grranted it might have invovled alot of purifying ritiuals..or just the old "It wasn't for me to enjoy it, it was God's work!"

from france

yes it is the " le pacte des loups" maybe "the convenant of wolfes in english. and for the topics remenber that as someone as said ther is holy prostities. it is the case in inda right now. even if the concept seems strange forus it is not for them to both associates prostitutes and holy. even if i don't see teh soritas like this. also lady jessica was sent on a mission and fell in love with duke leto.

another good point if they have to notice the move of nobility sonner or later depending on the said nobility visit to the brothel can be a mission.

English, French, and German are all really distant dialects of the same language (not so distant in the case of German and English). Sort of like Low Gothic.

High Gothic would be Proto-Indo-European.

the 8 spider said:

Lynata said:

Braddoc said:

English, French, and German are all really distant dialects of the same language (not so distant in the case of German and English). Sort of like Low Gothic.

High Gothic would be Proto-Indo-European.

Looks like it comes from the ancient Greek indeed: in that language the word "kydos" means "glory, honor, celebrity, glory", the same meanings my English dictionary gives for the word "kudos". It's also used in the meaning of "pride" by Homer in the Odyssey.
Too bad I have no English etymological dictionary so I can't check it, yet there seems to be a very close affinity between both words.

My old ancient-Greek dictionary states its root is an Indoeuropean word ("qudos"): so, yes, there could be still more trails in most European languages.

Berengario said:

You can find everything on the internet: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=kudos&searchmode=none

ZillaPrime said:

I've seen this a few times and I don't get it. Why would the Inquisitor involved in setting up a ring of prostitute/concubine spys need to have questionable morals, or be a Radical? Prostitution is not that wicked a thing; despite what puritan American bias would tell you. Certainly not nearly so horrible as the things Inquisitors do as a matter of course.

In the first Eisenhorn book, the Inquisitor allows hundreds of people to die while pursuing one heretic.

The Empire runs on the use of Servitors - criminals transformed into cyborg slaves - as a significant part of its labor force.

The government is a facist Theocracy which has next to no respect for the lives of its people.

But prostitution is something only the Very Questionable would stoop to using as a means of information? Really?

As you say; there's nothing radical about brothels, and they've been centres of espionage since pretty much the dawn of politics.

the 8 spider said:

'Brotherhood of the Wolf'

Amazing film.

The Sisters Famulous are the Bene Gesserit. That's probably why I like them so much. I'm trying to figure out how to make one with the disturbing voice talent but without the -10% to Fellowship to represent 'using the voice' like in the book/movie. Might just ask the GM, perhaps an extra talent 'Improved Disturbing Voice' that can be used at will. I realise a literal translation makes it more of a psychic power, but that's so not going to happen with a Sororitas

Just to be clear, Lady Jessica was Duke Leto's Consort, she was not a prostitute. A great character froma great book, Jessica is very much underrated I think. After all, if it wasn't for her foresight, Paul would never have been born, and without her strength of leadership the Fremen would not have become allies so easily.

I really don't think we've come up with plauible cases for the Sororitas being prositutes. Would an Inquisitor run a brothel or escorts to gather information, absolutely, but not the Sororitas.

Interesting that a French interpretation for kudos is 'hats off' because when used as an accolade that's pretty much captures the spirit of the way kudos is 'used' in english e.g. "great idea, hat's off to you sir", and as Wittgenstein said, meaning is use. It would not however relate in any way to "hat's off' if used as an imperitive e.g "hats off at the lord's table yer scurvy dogs!" Ah english, such a mish-mash.

French sounds the best though. If those Ordo Hereticus 'Courtesans' purred a bit of French in my ear I could be easily manipulated into giving up the name of my cult leader.

No one can resist French NO ONE