Greetings all,

After reading a review of Episode 7 of Game of Thrones (which, if you aren't already watching, you really REALLY should) I started thinking about brothels as being hotbeds for spies. Think about it like this: whores in a brothel would garner a lot of attention from males at their most intimate points, and are therefore most likely to be able to gather information from them in a secretive way.

So, naturally, I thought how I could use this for 40k, and I concocted the following:

Adepta Sororitas Meretrix - a group of Sororitas who are trained, like Famulous, as courtiers, for the sole purpose of acting as infiltraiting prostitutes and seductresses who manage to gain a footing in a nobles court to spy on their affairs from a more intimate stance. They might be a sub-order of Famulous, or some other station within the Sororitas.

Just an idea, what does everyone think?

Sounds like heresy

Inquisitors Handbook states that they are chaste. It´s right there in their description. Hard to be both chaste and an "escort".

Wow, tough call. Im not sure if that would break some kinds of vows of purity (whether it be unspoken or otherwise).

I could see such a situation as plausible until the famulous had to actually "perform her duty" as a *****. If your not too squimish about it or don't view the sororitas as being that rigid in their purity beliefs when it comes to defending the God-Emperor's domain, maybe she could go through with it under the premise that she is "taking one for the team".

You could also be clever about it and not have her do "the deed" at all. For instance, she could spike the target's drink with some mind-numbing/memory-inhibiting drug (or mayber the target enjoys some drugs as a part of the entertainment). As the drug takes effect, she pumps the target for information. When the time comes, the target is already unconscious (and she can make up whatever story she likes later) or the "drug-addled" target doesn't notice that she has replaced herself with a look-alike.

On the otherhand she could easily play the role of a brothel "Madame", garnering information from her network of spies (whores).

Quartermus said:

"On the otherhand she could easily play the role of a brothel "Madame", garnering information from her network of spies (whores)".

..and I think that this is the only way it could work if at all. The Sisters all have vows of chastity, and think about the corruption that would be incurred. Sisters just would not do it. How would it ever get started without a Celestine hit team blowing away anyone who suggested such a slight on the Order's Chastity, Integrety, Incorruptibility and Honour?

Additionally, with their almost 'confessor' like role, and selective breeding program the Sisters Famulous are more like the Bene Gesserit (from Dune) than common Courtesans.

And please, lets call them Prostitutes or 'Ladies of the Night' aye, ***** is so unecessary.

The Ecclesiarchy has whole planets of people it can find potential spies from to go pose as whatever. It doesn't need a specific Sororitas chapter. And this one would be rather... odd.

Aye, it conflicts with the idea of chastity and purity that permeated the Sisterhood since they renounced Vandire - they have been duped into becoming whores once before, and I just don't see them doing that again. Whilst an individual Sister of the Orders Sabine may end up having to engage in such activities, the general concept would break with the strict separation of genders mentioned in their original 2E Codex, existing in both the Schola Progenium (as well as the actual Convents), which has been introduced specifically because of what happened there during the Age of Apostasy (which was very close to this idea).

It would furthermore be a waste of personnel, giving that Sororitas candidates are selected from progena recruitment stock for a wide array of qualifications (both spiritual as well as corporeal), whereas I do not believe it would take much to become a pleasure girl.

I definitively see the potential for such an organization in 40k, but I would deem it far more fitting to connect it to the local nobility. Given how the Ecclesiarchy preaches about moral decency and how they changed the Scholae after Vandire's reign, I don't see them building a galaxy-wide network of brothels. Perhaps locally, in a region that allows for such an interpretation of dogma.

I have to agree about Game of Thrones, though. It's a brilliant series. Glad that the books were picked up by HBO - I don't think any other network could have pulled this off.

It's not impossible, I think it would be more probable if they were courtesans rather simply prostitutes.

run by the order famulous i might (with a BIG maybe) see this come too pass.

however i think there might be far eazyer ways too do so.

by sponsering some highclass madam or what not, but only by high ranking officals who would use it too gain some kind of up in the political shadow games they play.

or maybe same thing by and mumber of other agentsys too keep tab on there marks. and who knows maybe its not them that has control maybe its the madam trying too find out who ever would want the info for the best prize (money, infuence, power, and what not)

so do i see SOB chars of the Famulous order playing that kind of role. very very unlikely. unless for some greater reson and the good of the empire but still very unlikely

from france

i don't know hom many times i have to say it but in the fluff nothing prevent a sister to have a lover (no matter what the gender is) if only i could find the name of the sista who has a lover.

well it s not a agressive post so don't take it a such. but fidelity to the emepror for the sororitas has never been the sema as fidelity for catholic nun. as former catholic and a 20 years players of the boardgame i can affirm that it has never been say that. in fact as si fi fan i think of them as mixte of bene gesserit/ clone of joan of arc without the chatsity.

chastity if any existe is nit in term of physical need but spiritual and yes they love only the emperor but unlike catholique nun the flesh speack sometimes.

okay it s not the case for all. some choose both kind of of chastity but that the keys it s a choise not a rule. don 't know a game of trow but bene gesserit are a good exemple too.

well sorry fort the beigining especialy for you madame Lynata. i know your love for the soritas

the 8 spider said:

And it is my opinion that the official description as a "penitent organization where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime, where even the slightest deviation from approved stricture results in severest chastisement" simply precludes the chance to take a lover by default. The convents have even been described as outright not allowing any men inside their halls - save for, of course, Ecclesiarchal or Inquisitorial high officials or when they shelter some refugees.

A Sister is supposed to love the Emperor. And no-one else.

I believe the Inquisitor's Handbook had a very inspiring line about that:

"It is not enough to serve the Emperor, or even to love him.
You must give to Him all you have had, and all you ever shall have.
To give over utterly and entirely to His divine will.
Only then is your sacrifice fitting."

@8 spider: No worries, we all have our interpretations and conjecture!

Lynata said:

Well, Emperor himself said he was NOT a god, and his Bride doesn't care about this, so why should they care of more "civilian" rules!?

Sorry for bad english.

from france

okay Madame (mark of respect here not the other kind of madame just to remove any ambiguity due to the title of the post) we agree to disagree.

anyway the faboulus are more like bene gesserit with or without the sex relation. sounds like a compromis.

Sebashaw said:

I'm sure the truth about the Emperor would result in a crisis of faith for a lot (all?) of the Sisters and the clergy, but for the time being they just don't know better. To them, the rules they have is how the Emperor wanted things to be. Grimdark.

Sebashaw said:

Just like real religions, the Empire does quite a lot that was never intended by the person they venerate. While the Emperor himself - may he be exalted in fire and blood - may have not wanted to be whorshipped as a god, this has nonetheless come to be the case.

As for the brothel thing, I agree it doesn't make sense to have an arm of the Sororitas itself be part of this, but it is highly likely that the Inquisition, or at least individual Inquisitors, have networks of informants working as both Courtesans and prostitutes. (in fact, my Scum character in one game was a Courtesan-Spy for the Inquisition and he was damned good at it) It would, in fact, be silly for the Inquisition to overlook such a blatant opportunity to get spies close to those in power.

Hallo Diel Ulricsson,
as others have said, I don’t see any of the Sisters soil her body and purity in such an unclean way.

Yet I share your point of a brothel as an endless source of informations: so, while reading the previous posts, I coulnd’t help but figure such a den opened and secretely run by an unhortodox inquisitor (read radical, if you like) of the Ordo Hereticus via a chain of underlings, whose prominent member is precisely the lady who manages directly the building, the staff and the pieces of informations her employees gather from the customers and then tell her.

You can or cannot decide to have the staff informed about the fact they’re working «for the Imperium’s goodness» or have them just like pawns in the hands of high-stakers (like it is in «A game of thones»).

Novel idea.

I thought up something along similar lines. A chapter of Space Marines, that are specialized in countering the Chaos god Slaanesh. However, they consider it a spiritual war, not a physical one, and eschew normal Space marine combat doctrines. Instead, they sail the voids of the Imperium in their Love Barges (having altogether abandoned the concept of battle barges), offering their services to those Imperial citizens that deserve it - and those with enough coin. Maintaining a Love Barge with all it's neon lights isn't cheap. Entire companies of love marines, who want only one thing - to piously satisfy your every need. Because only the Emperor's finest, with their strapping superhuman physiques (and think of the possible genetic deviations and new implants they could have) and hypnodoctrinated minds, are able to counter the abominable acts carried out by Slaanesh.

Those with enough coin can access the Chapter Master himself and his honor guard all ready to kneel in front of you and accept whatever your "heavy bolter" has to offer. For the adventurous, you could visit the Forge Master in his dungeon. With tongs, pliers, aprons and leather straps, he would induct you in the secret arts of love marine toy making. The learned librarian would be more than ready to show you the 100 sutras of complete ecstacy.

They must be a special company of new Grey Knights.

Now, let's back to the Ordo Lupanare which we talked few posts ago...

I admit, I lol'd.

BrotherSurge said:

forums.petrisimolin.com/media/11362/Warhammer-SpaceHulkDanceSteps.jpg

"It is not enough to serve the Emperor, or even to love him.
You must give to Him all you have had, and all you ever shall have.
To give over utterly and entirely to His divine will and become a vessel of that will.
Only then is your sacrifice fitting."

Ok, before someone invents a new weird tech-heresy, I want try again:

1) Serving Emperor doesn't prevent to have deep relationship with other citizen.

2) Loving Emperor doesn't prevent to have deep relationship with other citizen.

Or we must admit that Saint Drusus's mother didn't love the Emperor. And this for everyone's mother.

Or we must admit that all mothers are heretics and witch because they have given their sons to Imperial Guard.

And this was easy.

3) What means "give to him all you have had and all you ever shall have"?

It's cover even the emotions? No, because it was said before about the phrase on love.

And I can say this because it's like the rule: "no men in church's army, but women are not men so take a bolter".

4) If a Sister must became the Emperor will, why share her love for him with other pious citizen would be a bad for Imperium and Emperor? Doesn't she is the link with Emperor's love for mankind in this mode?

The rule is clear, it's a venial matter.

From: ANCIENT LEGAL XANTHITES STUDIO - TWISTING IMPERIAL RULES SINCE M37

[sorry for bad english]

The problem is, lay peoples and even those who work for a church are held to a different standard than its priests. Using the Catholic church as an example - since the Ecclesiarchy is certainly based on that structure - lay worshipers and even alter attendants, choir, and others who aid the working of the church without taking up the cloth are entirely free to engage in love and sex, (though preferable not before marriage) as they see fit. However, once one gives themselves to the priesthood and God, they take vows and promise to accept sacrifice above and beyond what is asked of the lay whorshipers.

In the same way, the champions of the church in 40k are held to a higher standard than the populace. Indeed, considering that they are designed to be prefect specimens, made to reflect the glory of the Emperor in a way lesser peoples cannot, they may even be held to higher standards than his Clerics. Thus the strictures they live by are harsher, demanding greater sacrifice than almost anyone else. If they were the limited and flawed nobodies that make up most of the Empire they would be held to lesser standards ... but they are not and as such, more is expected of them.

But, I don't see where this creates a problem for the idea of having an organized spy network of concubines and prostitutes. They'd simply be working under the auspices of the Inquisition rather than being members of the Sororitas. And that is probably better ... after all, what high ranking individual, with secrets to hide, is going to trust a Sororitas in his bed anyway? He'd have to know that her first and greatest loyalty would be to the church. Were I such a person I'd much rather limit myself to employing the local, renowned, agency to provide me with a lady for the evening or long term. That is, if I hadn't simply purchased myself a pleasure slave to accommodate my needs. (any decent pleasure slave is going to be fully capable of appearing in public and mingling in high society)

I was only joking.

And Catholic Church is not always as we known it today.
Before the VII century, chastity was not required.

From what I read, I really don't know for sure if they can have lovers or not; I let my players choose what they prefer.

[in old Mutant Chronicles we had the same problems.]

Sebashaw said:

Brothels have always been a hotbed (haha) of intrigue, but there's really no reason to draft nuns into matters. The idea doesn't sit well with me, but I don't think a list of regulations that could be easily twisted out of at even a cursory glance should be the reason why the Order shouldn't exist. It's not like the SoB and those backing them haven't twisted the rules before in order to get their own way, after all. The whole 'no man under arms' thing was basically weasiling.

from france

a little clarification okay it s from wikipedia butyou can doublecheck it of you want.

Eleventh and twelfth centuries

In 888, two local councils, that of Metz and that of Mainz, prohibited cohabitation even with wives living in continence. This tendency was taken up by the 11th century Gregorian Reform, which aimed at eliminating what it called "Nicolaitism",[43] that is clerical marriage, which in spite of being theoretically excluded was in fact practised,[44] and concubinage.

The First Lateran Council (1123), a General Council, adopted the following canons:

Canon 3: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, and subdeacons to associate with concubines and women, or to live with women other than such as the Nicene Council (canon 3) for reasons of necessity permitted, namely, the mother, sister, or aunt, or any such person concerning whom no suspicion could arise.
Canon 21: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage. We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved, and that the persons be condemned to do penance.[45]

The phrase "contract marriage" in the first part of canon 21 excludes clerical marriages, and the marriages that the second part says must be dissolved may possibly be such marriages, contracted after ordination, not before. Canon 3 makes reference to a rule made at the First Council of Nicaea (see above), which is understood as not forbidding a cleric to live in the same house with a wife whom he married before being ordained.

so in pratice celibacy have been the norm less time than the mariage. plus it s a law of the church and not a doctrine. when apply to 40k it means that its the local autorithy who decide but it is not a doctrine. from that point it s a free choice for me.

again its not because sororitas are clone of joane of arc that they tok the celibacy.

"It is not enough to serve the Emperor, or even to love him.
You must give to Him all you have had, and all you ever shall have.
To give over utterly and entirely to His divine will and become a vessel of that will.
Only then is your sacrifice fitting."

nowhere it is writen that you will not love a man/woman or your felows. and for the repentia it is said real or imagined sins. plus i don't like the way they are treated in blood of martyr because in the fluff it s clearly said that some repentia surviving their trial return to their order cleanssed of sins even if they have to climb back to their former rank.

the 8 spider said:

Not even celibacy. Merely hetrosexual celibacy.