This post was broken by the crappy forum software and had to be restarted.

Lynata said:

Yeah, they trace back their roots to a single place with single set for rules... 5000 years ago! Well, all current forms of judaism, christianity and islam pretty much trace back their roots to Israel and Old Testament. See the results.

Surely the Imperium has it a lot better under control, of course, but I would still assume Sister of Battle, Sister Famulous and Sister Hospitaller would have pretty **** different set of "do's" and "do not's". For example I could easily see a rule for Sisters of Battle saying they must be dressed in power armor, wear certain regalia and carry a loaded and functional weapon every time they leave their chambers or certain other specifically listed places (like hospital). Naturally Sister Famulous won't have that rule since she probably doesn't know how to use power armor and can't carry a loaded weapon into highly sensitive negotiations. Similarly in order to be able to function in noble house of a hive city a Sister Famulous has to have rules concerning respecting local customs unless they are clearly heretical. If the local customs include roman style orgies the Famulous will step aside and politely not take part. Similarly a Sister of Battle would clearly NOT have rule for respecting local customs and might be very tempted to open fire on display of potential Slaanesh worship...

Lynata said:

Except that Ecclesiarchy doesn't have one set of regulations. Each cult, planet snd even shrine has different set of regulations. The whole Ecclesiarchy is a common bureaucracy of millions of religions connected only by smallest common denominator: "There is only one God and he is the Emperor. Thou shall not keep other gods." Outside that the only hard-and-fast rules seem to be the bans on Sorcery, unsanctioned use of Psychic powers and unsanctioned contant with aliens, daemons and mutants.

Lynata said:

"Everything" is a pretty wide concept if we don't know the actual rules. Does it mean they can't do anything unless specifically ordered to? Surely not. I think they can eat, drink, wash themselves and do multitude of other things on their own. They certainly don't seem to be sacrificing limbs or other organs on their own either. It might simply be that sexuality isn't seen as such a big thing and they don't simply need to ban it vow, especially since it fast becomes a non-issue due to the time and space limitations already mentioned. Its only when you take a Sister out of her "natural environment" and drop her into Inquisitors retinue or similar place that the things get complicated.

I would say some DO's and DON'Ts are common, and these would be those that trace back 5000 years ago. Just like Catholics, Protestants and Orthodoxs all have the same Bible, but may disagree on its interpretation. I'd say the Rules of the Sororitas are common and the same for all Sisters, as I'd think the Imperium has a good skill in preserving those kind of books (the ones with lots of rules and zero room for freedom, I mean).

Then you have the Order specific rules. Sister of Battle? Yeah, definitely I'd see some rule about "not going around without your f***in Bolter, you know, like when you go to war without a weapon? Not a good idea." Famulous, well...I can't see them ignoring the orgy. Not killing everyone outright sounds sound, but I'd see them going out of their way to prevent those people from further falling into corruption. Etc, etc...

As for sex, which is the real issue here, I think they would sacrifice that. It sounds about right, and what with pregnancy? Not very cool (especially for Sisters of Battle, but I think any Sister would have trouble doing her job when she reaches 8 months of pregnancy ), when you want to spend every second doing your job in the name of the Big E.

Whether or not there's a specific ruling seems a little moot, to me, as we're unlikely to ever see a full list of all the vows of the various orders of the various divisions of the Soritas (I'd imagine that even Our Martyred Lady and the Ebon Chalice have some practice differences). The main issue for me is, is it thematic? I'd say no. The "nuns with guns" archetype that underlies the Adepta Soritas doesn't have any room for sex. Even when compared to the Bene Gesserit, the main reason for the latter to seduce and play a part in sexual politics was their breeding programme, which isn't something the Soritas do. For me, that means that any ay of justifying it is just fuding the issue and diluting a concept by breaking the rules of the underlying archetype.

Lynata said:

Oh no! It was my fault, you know, I'm a hopeless Xanthite, will you forgive me?

I think the urge to have Sisters of Bed, is the same to have female space marines: when someone says that something is forbidden, someone else says that it's not!

Don't get me wrong. I'm for the "chaste sisters" archetype. Its just that I assume the end result (chastity) is product of personal vows and circumstances, not product of religious ban. You see Ecclesiarchy isn't Catholic Christianity and doesn't have one set of common rules. There is very few rules that are common to all cults inside Imperial Creed and from the source material I'm pretty sure that "Thou shalt not have sex for it is dirty and forbidden and leads to corruption" isn't one of them.

The only reason I am interested in debating it is because it directly affects how you play a Sister of any order. I'll argue that a Sister of Not-So-Battle (Famulous, Hospitaller etc.) see sex as "something other people do" instead of "something no-one should do". I can easily see how Sisters can function without ever having sex themselves but I can't see how Famulous would be able to function inside the definitely hedonistic Imperial nobility if they are too squemish about it.

You're right, maybe I wasn't clear on that.

The thing is, I advocate that the Sisters are forbidden to have sex themselves. About the others, well, it all depends.

But never forget that sex can be a factor of corruption (cue Slaanesh!), so, for the "holier than thou" Sororitas, it wouldn't be very clever to indulge into it.

Though the Emperor is a "Pimp", as in he is "The Man" and totally awesome, He WILL put the smack down on anyone who gets between Him and his fine, fine special lady friends: The Adeptus Sororitas. That being said...

The Adeptus Sororitas are a very insular organization and the most likely place where one of them might find a lover is among another member of their own convent. I think that the possibility does exist for a rare few of the Orders Militant to turn a blind eye to some discrete relations amongst the Sisters of that Order. Though the Rules of the Sororitas are the same through out the Imperium, each Canoness may interpret these rules differently depending on the Traditions established by the founding Saint. A debate about the interpretation of "What is Love" is best left to a forum dedicated to philosophy. The vast majority of the Orders would censure such acts with varying degrees of punishment depending once again on interpretation and Tradition. Though the Sororitas' indoctrination turns them into Fanatics, they are still ultimately human. Interestingly enough, no where in the IH Adeptus Sororitas Ranks are they given access to the Chem-Geld Advance. Their natural human sexuality, coupled with their zealous commitment to self-denial allows them to channel their sexual frustrations into a potent weapon to be unleashed upon the Enemies of Mankind. This is evident by the symbolism of their organization, the Fleur-de-lis as well as the obvious sexuality of their power armor. I do side very much with Lynata's interpretations of the Sororitas, though ultimately it will depend on the style of your GM, who is final authority in interpreting the 40Kverse.

@ Lynata: thank you very much for the wonderful Sororitas fluff.

Sebashaw said:

Absolutely! And of course, "the forbidden fruit" just makes it all the more tempting.

There's a reason for why Nunsploitation is its own genre - and it is reflected in a lot of fanarts concerning the Sororitas as well.

I'm not entirely innocent in that regard as well (and neither is GW, judging by certain miniature designs, though the only canon traitor SoB becoming a Slaanesh Champion might give hint, too). And I admit that sexuality can have a place virtually everywhere (even in a nun's convent). The only question is the form one's concept takes (ranging from ecchi to outright porn as well as all the details) and if it truly seems sensible in the context of the setting, or if someone just wants to push his kinky/cool/wicked/etc idea into the game, or if the artist/writer doesn't even mean it serious but just creates his work for fun without actually seeing is as happening "for real".

Polaria said:

The Ecclesiarchy, yeah. But as noted, the Sisters are different, likely because they're much fewer and more tightly connected (the 2E 'dex even mentioned them all training either in the Convent Sanctorum or Prioris before being dispatched to their actual workplace), else transferring from one Order into another would not go so smoothly. And when they have thousands of rules, and are constantly described as being all about self-deprivation and hardship, I can't imagine they just forgot about sex.

Just my thoughts on the subject, though - as has been correctly observed, there has not been an explicit law mentioned in canon yet. Personally, with all the other things that were written, I don't see that as necessary, but I suppose this is simply a matter of opinion.

As far as the Orders Famulous are concerned: "The Famulous maintain their own strict lifestyle and strive to control the excesses of those they are assigned to."

Grinnenstadt: Gladly! I suppose Sororitas PR is one of my favorite pastimes.

Had to grin at the mention of "channeling sexual frustration into a potent weapon", by the way - this reminded me of the old Red Rage jokes that existed since the very first miniatures hit the shelves.

Grinnenstadt said:

Which - if my memory serves - heraldry has as a symbol for purity and chastity.
Thus, in my opinion, its symbolism just strengthens what has been said by most: no Sister is likely to perform anything unchaste, not even «discrete relations amongst the Sisters of that Order» («chastity» meaning not only «sexual inactivity» but also a living inspired by moderation, self-restraint and modesty in all things).

Lynata said:

Do you know the so called «Nun of Monza» portrayed by Alessandro Manzoni in his book «The Betrothed» (1827)? it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaca_di_Monza (sadly I could find no English page but this: blogcritics.org/books/article/the-nun-of-monza/ and many others about a 60's movie)
She’s a fictionary character strongly built on a real rake nun, whereas with the contemporary biographers one’s never too sure about their work’s foundations and readings: they just pick shady persons of the past and make every effort to have them tally with modern categories.

Berengario said:

If we include 40k, it even has a double meaning, for the Sisters of Battle have their own "Holy Trinity" - which is made up of bolter, flamer and melta.

Berengario said:

As far as The Nun of Monza is concerned, apparently there are several movies, though the reviews and descriptions sound "a little" suspicious ...

• The Nun of Monza (1962)
• The Awful Story of the Nun of Monza (1969)
• Unholy Convent (1973)
• The True Story of the Nun of Monza (1980)

Seems a little less "solid" than the reports on Sister Benedetta, though I wouldn't rule out some truth at the core of this story either. Too bad the wikipedia article is not available in either English or German.

Polaria said:

I don't think the Imperial Cult acknowledges the existence of Chaos. I KNOW it doesn't acknowledge the existence of daemons, chaos gods, or CSM...

Lynata said:

Ops, I've just noticed that the movie(s) is/are quite sleazy...
I'm sorry for that reference in my previous post, it was unintentional (until yesterday I didn't even know there were movies about the "Nun of Monza", let alone their contents).

As for "die Nonne von Monza", I've made a search for more informations in German too (my county's second tongue) but only found short hints in a couple of pages (both on Wikipedia). I write them down, should you still be interested:

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Promessi_Sposi
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_de_Leyva

If we include 40k, it even has a double meaning, for the Sisters of Battle have their own "Holy Trinity" - which is made up of bolter, flamer and melta.

Time ago, somewhere over the Internet I found this very fitting Tthought for the day:

Give a heretic a place at the fire, and he will be warm for a day. Set a heretic ablaze with your flamer, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Deinos said:

The "sacrifice" thing probably stems from the Emperor. Him being imprisoned on the Golden Throne is a pretty big theme throughout 40k, effectively mirroring the Christian "he died for your sins" myth. To a faithful Imperial, it is the greatest honour to sacrifice something himself to "pay back his debt" to Him on Earth - and the more faithful you are, the more you sacrifice. The greatest sacrifice is, of course, death in service to the Imperium, but for the Adepta Sororitas, every single day of their life is part of their sacrifice. Hence the term "penitent organization", which was used to describe the Sisters since the very first edition of Warhammer 40k, then still called Rogue Trader.

As for Chaos/daemons/mutations/CSMs/etc, the denial is probably true when it comes to the common citizen ("Ignorance is Bliss"), but very likely not the Sisterhood, seeing that it is engaged in actively fighting these things. I'd consider it prudent to have protocols in place to protect against their influence, and the extremely low rate of corruption - in the fluff represented by only a single Sister turning traitor (Miriael Sabathiel, "nowadays" a Champion of Slaanesh, leading a host of CSMs and daemons through a campaign against the Pyrus Reach), and on the TT represented by their "Shield of Faith" special rule (Codex quote: "[the AS] are the epitome of faith and purity") - would seem to hint at this.

Berengario said:

Thanks! Looks like her stay in the convent was rather short, more of a refuge rather than true profession? Still, it does seem to be a nice story, and could even be true (though I'd be sceptical to that tyrant suddenly turning into a good Christian, sounds like a story element, or maybe it's just my lack of optimism when it comes to human nature ).

Berengario said:

"I have yet to find a cinder that was not faithful in its praise for the Emperor."
- Canoness-Commander Selena Agna, Order of the Sacred Rose

Lynata said:

Thanks! Looks like her stay in the convent was rather short, more of a refuge rather than true profession? Still, it does seem to be a nice story, and could even be true (though I'd be sceptical to that tyrant suddenly turning into a good Christian, sounds like a story element, or maybe it's just my lack of optimism when it comes to human nature ).

Well, the nun's character (appearing in chapter 9 and 10 only) was based on a real person and her life (no, her stay in the convent wasn't short but but lifelong), most of the rest was fictional.

Ahh, misunderstood the article - I thought Lucia would be the nun in question. Alright then!