Situation: I have a one claim plot on the table, and an epic phase event. I win the epic battle unopposed, and play Assault of the Kraken. What happens?

Battle of Deepwood Motte. "Plot: After the dominance phase this round, there is an epic phase during which each player may initiate a single challenge with normal claim. The winner of each challenge may choose and discard from play a location controlled by the losing player. (Place this card next to your plot deck until the end of this epic phase.)"

Battle of Ruby Ford: "Plot: After the dominance phase this round, there is an epic phase during which each player may initiate a single challenge with a claim value of 2. (Place this card next to your plot deck until the end of this epic phase.)"

Assault of the Kraken: "Response: After you win an unopposed challenge, you may initiate an additional challenge of the same type this phase (this additional challenge must be the next challenge you initiate). If that additional challenge is opposed, neither player wins the challenge."

Situation 1: I'm using Battle of Deepwood Motte. If I win a challenge, play Assault of the Kraken, and win unopposed, do I get to discard a second location?

Situation 2: I'm using Battle of Ruby Ford. If I win a challenge, play Assault of the Kraken, and win unopposed, is it claim 1 (plot) or claim 2 (Ruby Ford)?

All of the Epic Battle events say that each player may initiate a single challenge during the Epic phase. So Assault of the Kraken cannot be played because you are prohibited by the phase mechanics from initiating more than one challenge during the phase.

Absolutely no "extra challenge" effects currently available work during the epic phase because of the "single challenge" limitation on the effect that creates the epic phase to begin with.

@ktom: How do you determine which card effect takes precedence over the other? For example, as a general rule, you get one military challenge during Challenges. The card Assault of the Kraken "breaks" that rule.

Here we have an Epic Phase, which says that you get one challenge. Why can't Assault of the Kraken "break" that rule too?

The Challenge phase framework only allows for 1 type of challenge per round; a card like Assault of the Kraken modifies that to allow an additional challenge, but there is no inherent limit to how many additional challenges you can make through player actions during the Challenges phase. The Epic Battle cards place an inherent limit on the number of challenges that are allowed in the phase as part of the framework, and therefore you cannot make any additional challenges. War of the Five Kings was even changed to include the words "single challenge" to prevent extra challenges.

I'm a little bored at work, and I'm sure ktom will answer too, in much greater detail... I just wondered how close my answer is to his.

Here's the quick and dirty explanation:

This isn't a matter of "which card takes precedence over the other." Assault of the Kraken is not in conflict with the Epic events such that you have to determine which one "trumps" the other. This is an issue of timing and the way the Epic phase is set up.

Take a look at the flow chart for the Challenge phase in the FAQ and notice the arrow running from the "resolve challenge" framework window back to the pre-challenge player action window. It is labeled "active player's next challenge opportunity" (or something like that). Because of that arrow, you keep cycling that loop until the active player does not initiate a challenge -- either because they choose not to initiate a challenge they are allowed to make or because they have no more challenges that they can legally initiate.

But because the Epic phase is created with a "single" challenge opportunity, If you were to draw out the flowchart for the Epic phase, that arrow wouldn't there. So each player only goes through the "initiate challenge" framework window one time. So even if you do play an "extra challenge" Response or effect, it doesn't matter because you never actually get another chance in the timing structure of the Epic phase in which to initiate that extra challenge. Remember, even though "Assault of the Kraken" gives you permission to initiate another challenge, it is the "initiate challenge" framework window that lets you actually use that permission.

So again, it's not a matter of "why does the effect of the epic event 'trump' the effect of the 'extra challenge' event." It's that the timing structure of the Epic Phase created by the event only gives you one bite at the apple.

I presume that this same reasoning applies to the situation of more than one player playing an Epic Battle card in the Plot phase. Even though each individual Epic Battle card allows you (as it gives the ability to all players) to initiate a single extra challenge, you'd have to choose which of the granted challenges you'd want to take and, for you, the rest would be wasted.

This is unless each Epic Battle event creates a separate and distinct Epic Battle phase, then you'd be able to do each challenge.

TheLarz said:

It creates multiple epic phases. I spent a good month trying to understand them on this board lol

TheLarz said:

ktom said:

Ah, I see, thanks. I've read the FAQ, guess just not carefully enough. Whoopsie.

ktom said:

From the FAQ:

(3.34) Multiple Epic Phases

If multiple epic phases are created in a single round, they are played in the order in which they were created, after the dominance phase and before the standing phase.

Since the wording on the actual event cards is typically "After the dominance phase this round, there is an epic phase during which each player may initiate a single X challenge," is there a reason or rationale for why they don't instead occur in the reverse order that the events were played? I.e. The first event creates a phase order: DOMINANCE > EPIC ONE > STANDING and then the second event would then create another phase _immediately after_ dominance to make it: DOMINANCE > EPIC ONE > EPIC TWO >STANDING. I'm not contesting the decision, I'm just curious if there was a logic to it that I might use as a mnemonic.

Maester_LUke said: