Hello,

today I saw the new Astral Claws shoulder pads from Forgeworld, which reminded me of an old idea for a black shield, a repentant Red Corsair. According to the Black Shield section of the core rulebook "Some may even be traitors turned back to the light, but haunted by a life of sin and blasphemy they can never confess." The problem I have with that is that the origin of a black shield is supposed to be known only to the player and the GM. I'm sure a Red Corsair can scratch all the Chaos arrows and deformed skulls off his armour, after all he already did it once with the aquila, but what is the deal with that backpack? It screams CSM. Some say that the Eye of Terror or whatever warp anomaly CSM hide in changes their armour, but the 13th company of the Space Wolves was in there just as long and the only changed armour parts were those obviously looted as spare parts (they didn't even bother repainting them). Others say that they are an older pattern of backpack, but no loyalist picture or model in Mk I-VIII armour has them. According to the Codex Chaos Space Marines they are "Backpacks with expanded venting required for stacked cell power plant." I'm just wondering, how smart would it be to enter Erioch with one of those things? And if it's a bad idea.... Well, nothing says "I'm sorry" like killing a loyalist marine for his backpack so you can enter the Deathwatch.

If not an older pattern (which I would say that it is) it may be a camp-actualization. You know, low of supplies and techmarines or proper equipment. Mk V Hersy armours are built from that.

Even more, no Forge World manufactures the armours with the same pattern exactly, it may be a pattern from Ultima Segmentu Forge World X

But I will say its an older pattern, as it is written. No pictures about it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Or, as my GM done with my Black Shield, you can give him a "new armour, clean of the taint of heresy"

Just a note that if you are using the official timeline, its 817.m41. The Badab Uprising won't happen for another hundred years. So the Astral Claws are a loyalist chapter right now.

I imagine that any Astral Claws in the Deathwatch when Huron went traitor will likely take up the Black Shield though.

Thanks for the replies. I don't care that much for the timeline. It just makes it harder to remember what has already happened between all of GW's retcons, it excludes a lot of interesting stuff (Necrons, Badab War), doesn't make much sense (if the Deathwatch doesn't know the Necrons yet Callidus assassins shouldn't have C'tan phase swords) and doesn't really matter anyway because whatever happens around the Eye of Terror, Cadia, Terra or wherever GW decides to let something happen doesn't really concern the settings of the RPGs.

If the backpack is simply an alternate pattern of another forge world it would still be strange that Chaos has them regardless if they are in the Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom or anywhere else and that switching over to them seems to be as mandatory as getting rid of Imperial symbols, but I guess that's GW logic.... I think I will continue using it. Heck, combined with a big cloak that can cover your Deathwatch pauldron (something like there in the second panel: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CLjcbphHtqg/TVuAvx7o8RI/AAAAAAAADQY/nQI6Po7A2Uk/s1600/wolfandsister.jpg ) you could even scout among heretics.

I thought the C'Tan phase swords were in use before the discovery of the Necrons. Discovered or "leaked" Necron technology without knowledge of the source.

Personally, I view the Chaos Marine backpack 'design' as being nothing more than evidence of a lack of routine maintenance - the design of a standard backpack must be routinely and carefully maintained to keep it functioning at optimal efficiency. Those in use by Chaos Space Marines (which don't resemble those of older patterns of Power Armour) have an expanded cooling system to deal with overheating caused by a less efficient, poorly-maintained reactor.

bogi_khaosa said:

Index Astartes: "The Adeptus Mechanicus is always eager to profit from the Deathwatch's victories and the C'tan phase sword, employed by the Callidus temple of assassins, was recovered by members of the Deathwatch from a long-dead Necrontyr world."

N0-1_H3r3 said:

So theoretically it should be standard issue for every not that tech-savvy kill-marine?

Mjoellnir said:

There's evidence to suggest that parts of the Inquisition have known about the Necrontyr (as a long-dead species) for centuries or even millennia, long before the official first contact in 897.M41 (the Sanctuary 101 incident, which is only the official first contact because it was the first time a Necron attack could be conclusively proven as such). Similarly, there have been references to the C'Tan in the background for a long time, since long before the connection between the Necrons and the C'Tan was ever made.

Mjoellnir said:

So theoretically it should be standard issue for every not that tech-savvy kill-marine?

In theory it's possible, but every Space Marine is taught the correct rites and rituals of maintenance for his wargear; the correct way of doing things like equipment maintenance is less important to the average Chaos Space Marine, particularly those who are forced to raid and steal for supplies.

So, yeah, a loyalist backpack could be rebuilt that way, but as a jury-rigged design, it demonstrates improper care for the sacred wargear of the Astartes, which is in itself conduct unbecoming of a Space Marine...

What's to stop the CSM kicking his vile armour into the nearest black hole (complete with its armour history 'murder of innocents, +5horde damage against non-combatants') and turning up without armour, to be instead issued a less corrupt set of battle plate? It kinda makes sense.

There's a few issues.

1) Wargear and armour is honoured and respected. Showing up without is suspicious to say the least.

2) Chaos Mutations, which many if not most of them will have, are a give away.

3) Transportation. To join the Deathwatch you have to find them and show up. If you're showing up in a strike cruiser with eight pointed stars on the side . . .

Couple thoughts from what I've seen:

1. Sure, "regular" marines wouldn't know how to maintain their packs, but they have access to chapter armories and the techmarines therein, so some of the heavier maintainence or part replacement is still availible. CSMs, on the other hand, don't have the same industrial base, near as I can tell.

2. Space Marines, repentant traitors or no, rarely wake up one day and say to themselves, "You know what might be cool? Being a Black Shield." I would think it entirely plausible that some marine could show up at the Watch Fortress sans-gear. It might have been destroyed in whatever happened to make the marine choose said course of action, the chapter may have been so far gone that he couldn't bring himself to wear their stuff anymore, or maybe the marine dislikes where he came from so much that he wants to make sure a stray pulse rifle shot won't scratch his shiny new black paintjob and spill the beans. Anyhow, Black Shields by their very nature have something to hide, and I would think that if a Watch Commander is going to go about accepting black shields, he should almost expect a certain level of this.

3. Get there by stealing a shuttle or small craft? Sure, you might have to make a short stop on the way to scratch "Khorne Was Here!" off the hull, but it would still theoretically get you to the watch fortress.

Cynical Cat said:

They're to be respected if you consider them sacred. A repentant marines is not going to consider his power scythe 'infant killer', steeped in 10,000 babies hearts and covered in chaos sigils very sacred any more, nor the similarly adorned armour. This of course goes double if you know that turning up with such items is just going to get you shot in the face, rather like turning up at a Legion Etrangere outpost in handcuffs is not going to help your recruitment chances.

One could argue that any marine who has fallen as far to gained the taint of mutation is likely to be too morally corrupt to want to consider redmeption.

You don't have to join up at Erioch. The concept of Black Shields is wider than the Jerico Reach.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

True, and if the Deathwatch already had contact with them (usually the Deathwatch doesn't do archeology, few whips can hold the weight of a Marine in power armour) I think they and the Ordo Xenos should have information about them. Enough that they don't think that Necron ruins on a planet are from a local species no one knows.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well, it's possible for Space Marines to be cut off from their technical facilities like it happened to Shrike. During a guerilla war there is not necessarily the time to get out of your armour and start chanting litanies to the machine god.

Siranui said:

I don't think Chaos armour itself is corrupt unless it's mutated and grown together with a possessed Marine and the armour history could still be a normal one unless it came from a chaos forgeworld. Plus the armour is practically part of the identity of the Marine, even if he hides it.

Cynical Cat said:

That's the question, personally I guess it depends on how far you are gone and if you carry a mark of chaos. There's a servant of the Alpha Legion in The Emperor Protects who has founded cults to destabilize the Imperium on multiple worlds while working for chaos without getting a single mutation.

Cynical Cat said:

Well, that's the problem of all black shields. It's not likely that the chapter that threw you out or that you left provides a transport. There has to be some way to contact the Deathwatch that they haven't told us about yet. My personal guess would be that you can contact them through Arbites courthouses.

LiveUnderBridge said:

CSM can churn out whole new ships with the help of the Chaos forgeworlds, and the Iron Warriors where lead by techmarines until 3rd edition as far as I remember.

LiveUnderBridge said:

If you're afraid of somebody checking under the black paint you can sand the original paint off before you apply the black. And what could part a Marine from his armour without killing him? It's practically part of him. A part that can be replaced but still...

LiveUnderBridge said:

Getting there is probably the most complicated part since small craft usually can't enter the warp.

Mjoellnir said:

Actually, if he departs his previous formation right after the battle (Such as in the case of the loss of the rest of his chapter, or a catastrophic battle) all it would really take is a high damage hit to the power unit, theoretically he could keep the rest, but moving in it would be a good way to get killed. Another possible option would be if he took a massive hit, say airburst artillery or somesuch, that the armor barely stopped to the point where the marine inside is still essentially alright, but his armor is torn completely to hell.

Mjoellnir said:

Except in the second story in the latest Heresy anthology, where there's seemingly a one-man spaceship. Go figure.

I was thinking something more akin to Flight of the Eisenstien, but this is valid too.