I've finally got our gaming group together to create characters for this game. I thought I'd run through the basics, so when it came to putting pen to paper they sorta knew what they were buying into. At this point it was pretty obvious to me that one of my players was less than enthusiastic about it (which was extremely contrary to the other two, who bought it up hook, line and sinker).

Anyway, we put together characters the best we could (though to say they were overwhelmed with choice when it came to actions is an understatement*), but once we'd done this the 'sceptic' stated that it just seemed a bit too much like a board game. I tried to disuade him, even stating that I had the same initial reaction, but I'm not convinced he bought it.

Just what can I say to him to convince him it's as far removed from a board game as any other RPG he's played (hell, further, if D&D is his benchmark)?

*Side note: Is there any resource around that might list the careers with a couple of suggested actions (just like they do trappings) for certain builds. Example: Soldier. Sword/Hand weapon build = X, Y, Z actions. Two Handed weapon build = A, B, C actions. Just thought this might 'focus' extremely new players attention so they aren't like mine, left staring at several HUGE piles of cards having absolutely no idea what to go for...

Playing with the bits and pieces or with "lite"-version?

You could get the Player's Guide as a pdf and use its character sheet (or the one in my signature). Don't give them any of the handy cards but make them copy the skills and such from the Player's Guide and keep other stuff to yourself. Run a test scenario without the pieces and give them when they complain about their lack of clear markings on the sheet.

"Just what can I say to him to convince him it's as far removed from a board game as any other RPG he's played (hell, further, if D&D is his benchmark)?"

I think the only way to do this is through play, you're going to have to let the dice and your game itself show him that its not a board game. Good luck.

As to suggested actions for typical "builds" no resource I am aware of, but you could group the actions yourself into pools for different kinds of activities and offer them up as suggestions for particular styles.

SM,

Liber Fanatica #7 has a pregenerated character for every career. This is what I started my group out with. It works VERY WELL to get people started: www.liberfanatica.net/LF7download.html

It's not a boardgame and he needs to suck it up and be a man about this. Just tell him, "so what?" Actually one of my players said it feels like Magic the Gathering because of the card exchange program and boosts/bumps. I asked him "so what?" He got over it. He's the player that does rules-lite.

jh

If you want to get extreme you could take some low-rent RPG book you care little for and strip all the pages out of it and then dump them in the player's lap and ask him if that is a board game. If he agrees that it is not a board game, but a roleplaying game book....then you can ask if he'd rather the pages were 8.5x11 or easily manipulated cards.

OR as Emerikol said you can simply go with "so?"

The proof really is in the pudding so-to-speak. My players were very hesitant to let themselves enjoy 3rd edition and I could see them building a case against it from the mere mention of "hey guys our next Warhammer adventure cycle is going to be 3rd edition." I had to prepare myself to showcase the highlights of the system as best I could before they showed up for session #1. I circumvented the potential for them to sit around for 2-4hours at character generation picking the game apart and lampooning it endlessly...by making pregens (I wish I had hit up LF VII in hindsight). I packaged all their "bits-n-chits" up in zippered clear plastic bank totes when they showed up they had only a race, career and province of origin to pick their characters from (the game is about roleplaying, not the fancy shiz). I then hucked the bags at them and we set up the game.

I held ALL the action cards on my side of the table for our first session and the players only had a post-it each that had their "special abilities" listed on it. We started playing and even though I bumped around a bit with the trackers and rules stuff myself we managed to have a fairly good maiden voyage. When a player wanted to do something they had to wait for me to reference the card, build their dice pool and then interpret the results. It slowed our session down considerably and about half way through my most impatient player remarked as such. I explained that if he was willling to reference the rules on his own he could build his own dice pools and interpret his own results. I tossed him his character's cards. He and another player put their heads together and discussed things between their turns and had dice pools all set to go. Play speeded up considerably and the other players asked for their cards. It made their lives easier, and our game session lept forward.

In terms of the pregens, we've always done random career selection so it wasn't grating for them at all. BUT I made at least one poor choice per character (characteristics, actions, etc) so that it ended up standing out that the players could have built a better character. The result of that bit of manipulation is that we are probably going to start over after my fiddled version of Eye for an Eye so that they can learn character creation in 3rd edition and make characters that are tweaked out in their own way so that they don't have to continue playing the "B Team" as one player put it. I feigned "oopsie" ignorance and now my rules-lawyer is determined to learn the rules so that he can give me wut-for.

We are only a few sessions deep now, but they have been having a lot of fun with 3rd edition. Or rather, they've had just as much fun as we ever have playing Warhammer, and the system hasn't c-blocked anyone's fun yet. I just had to blind fold them enough to trick them into enjoying it. I do the same thing with my kids and spinach (cooking it into eggs or hiding it in regular salad, sandwiches etc). As GM's we're supposed to be the masters of manipulation aren't we?

You also have to steele yourself for the potential that Warhammer might not be your nay-sayer's cup of tea. I hate GURPS, but it doesn't necessarily make me a bad person (not that I would admit if I was truly evil). I have also been known to play big gobs of GURPS with my friend that loves it. If this is the case, where your player is flat out not willing to play 3rd edition as a friendly hang-out-favour to you then you may need to boot the player or simply put up with it if you are short on willing participants in your personal corner of the globe.

character gen is when the game is at it's most fiddly. you are pouring through all the cards etc. once the game starts the players have a couple of talents a handful of action cards and dice.

i would simply get the resistant player to play. after a couple of sessions i would be surprised if they can demonstrate that the game is inferior to other rpgs from a role playing perspective.

all of you (GM and players) embrace narrating the dice.

Well put New Zombie. I find that most of the "nay-sayers" have never experienced the game and the few that have haven't given it the "old college try". That is something I cannot stand, people who hate on things just to hate on things. I found that by just priming my players so they understood the utility of the bitz went along way to smoothing over the wrinkles as it were. However my players are new to RPG's so they aren't stuck in the 80's.

I hope it works out for you Sausageman

Thanks for the advice - I actually wished I'd made this thread BEFORE character gen now, some really good ideas (though I must confess, I think I like the 'so what' advice best )

the thing that confused me most about this, is that he is currently running a D&D 3.5 game, and very good it is too. However, this is the first game we've really used miniatures and a board to represent 'dungeon' encounters. This is FAR more like a board game to me, was completely down to him, as the GM to implement, and we ALL agree that it works brilliantly.

Perhaps it's just a knee-jerk reaction. He really enjoyed the 1st Ed, Enemy Within I ran (his first experience of Warhammer was 'The Oldenhaller Contract - which will forever be known as the most brutal first session of a game we've ever played ), perhaps he feels that 3rd ed doesn't 'feel' Warhammer-y enough yet...