What happens if I have in play a sorce sorcerer of tzeench, I play a devlopment, and in response my opponent plays a pilgrimage on my sorcerer?
Does the ability activates?
I think so, because it says "When I play a development" means the moment it leave my hand!
Your opponent may play Pilgrimage in response to the fact that you play a development, and then your sorcerer doesn't trigger his ability and go to your hand.
Budmilka_fr said:
Your opponent may play Pilgrimage in response to the fact that you play a development, and then your sorcerer doesn't trigger his ability and go to your hand.
Ok but i Trigger the ability in response to his pilgrimage.I played a development out of my hand, so I don't see why I can't!
So hold up,
Step 1: You play a development
Step 2: He plays Pilgrimage in response
Step 3: You try to trigger the Sorcerer in response.
Have I got this right?
If this is the case, then I'd say it's your classic case of resolving the stack: Last in, first out. So you try to trigger the Sorcerer, it fizzles because you haven't played the development yet (it's on the bottom of the stack.) Then his Pilgrimage sends your Sorcerer back to your hand, then your development hits the table. Isn't that it?
Actually, the Sorcerer doesn't care if the development is in play yet, just that it's been "played" (put on the stack). So, Pilgrimage won't stop the Sorcerer's ability from going on the stack. Once it's on the stack, it resolves even if the Sorcerer is removed from play.
Yes Cyberfunk the action is on the stack but as there is 0 token on the sorcerer when resolving the action, so he does 0 damage.
This is the same case with Snitch, when you use its action then before resolving you "lose" a skaven card.
Good point. Since we have a "then," the value of X is checked on resolution, and if the Sorcerer has left play, that value is going to be zero. For other cards that trigger on a development being played though, like Spellsinger, a Pilgrimage would not stop the effect.
No, I don't think it would be zero.
By cyberfunk's logic, "Actually, the Sorcerer doesn't care if the development is in play yet, just that it's been "played" (put on the stack). So, Pilgrimage won't stop the Sorcerer's ability from going on the stack", so follow the LIFO
Step 1: You play a development
Step 2: He plays Pilgrimage in response
Step 3: You try to trigger the Sorcerer in response.
so we resolve Step 3 first, Sorcerer of Tzeench's Action is a trigger Action, if player can play that action means it met the condition.
So follow the Action description:"Action: When you play a development from your hand, put a resource token on this unit. Then, deal X damage to target unit. X is the number of resource tokens on this unit."
In Step 3 we'll put the resource token first then do damage(by cyberfunk's logic, the Sorcerer doesn't care if the development is in play yet, so it still can put resource token on it, no matter how many developments in play, it's different in Snitch case, because we don't need count the number of developments.)
So if cyberfunk's logic is right, then it will do the damage and not zero, else the Action trigger is illegal you can't do that.
Here is my take on it: If the actions 1) Play development, 2) Respond with Pilgrimage, 3) Respond with Sorcerer's action are played in this sequence, the playing of the development is still on the action stack and has not resolved when 3) is resolving, so it is not in play yet. So playing 3) is possible, but the effect will fizzle, as no development has been played yet. So no token and no damage assigned. Then Pilgrimage will send back the Sorcerer and after that the development enters play.
The second player would respond to the Sorcerer's ability, not to the playing of the development.
tako said:
Here is my take on it: If the actions 1) Play development, 2) Respond with Pilgrimage, 3) Respond with Sorcerer's action are played in this sequence, the playing of the development is still on the action stack and has not resolved when 3) is resolving, so it is not in play yet. So playing 3) is possible, but the effect will fizzle, as no development has been played yet. So no token and no damage assigned. Then Pilgrimage will send back the Sorcerer and after that the development enters play.
agree
But more I like that action is illegal because it's a trigger action, if it met the condition then he can trigger and do his action, or you can't do that action. and If it can do its action, it'll be full functional, put the resource and deal the damage.
And, cyberfunk's logical is different with you. because he think it's no matter the development "played" yet or not. you can trigger that action if you do "play" the development by description on card:" When you play a development from your hand", because it's not "When a development "played" from your hand"
I don't know which one of you is right.
"Played" refers to a card that has just been paid for and had its targets chosen, but does not require it to enter play. (You can see this from looking at High Elf's Disdain, which targets a card "just played")
Because the Sorcerer says "when you play a development", then its trigger condition is met as soon as you declare that you are playing the development, and so must be triggered at the first opportunity. In this example, the first opportunity is in response to Pilgrimmage, so that Action goes on the stack at that time. When you resolve the action, you add the token, and then the Sorceror does 1 damage.
Entropy42 said:
"When you resolve the action, you add the token, and then the Sorceror does 1 damage.
On what do you put the token as when you resolve the action as SoT is in your hand? And even if there were token on SoT before, there are no more token on it when you resolve it's action, as it is in your hand.
Because the correct way of playing the sequence is not the one described by HappyDD, this is not what OP is posting.
What's OP is talking about is :
- He plays developpement
- He triggers SoT
- Opponent plays pilgrimage in response to SoT action.
Entropy42 said:
"Played" refers to a card that has just been paid for and had its targets chosen, but does not require it to enter play. (You can see this from looking at High Elf's Disdain, which targets a card "just played")
Because the Sorcerer says "when you play a development", then its trigger condition is met as soon as you declare that you are playing the development, and so must be triggered at the first opportunity. In this example, the first opportunity is in response to Pilgrimmage, so that Action goes on the stack at that time. When you resolve the action, you add the token, and then the Sorceror does 1 damage.
Agree with this answer
then stack will be
Step 1: You play a development
Step 2: You try to trigger the Sorcerer in response.
Step 3: He plays Pilgrimage in response
so your SoT can do action, but when you resolve your action, your SoT is not in play(because Pilgrimage resolved first), so you have no token on SoT, you do 0 damage.
The other reference on FAQ1.4 page 7 Detailed Timing Structure
B. Action Window
1. Players take turns putting Triggered Actions that have met their trigger condition since the last Action Window on a chain, starting with the first player (the Triggered Actions also must have met their trigger condition this turn) and continuing until all players pass
2. Players have the opportunity to play actions (starting with the active player, these will either start a new chain or be added to an existing chain if any Triggered Actions were triggered during B-1)
so, if players play actions in Simultaneous, the active player's triggered action will put into stack first then players have the opportunity to play actions.
so SoT's action will put into stack first, not Pilgrimage.
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PS. Entropy42, would you please help me to resolve my question "A question about Bloodthirster (Legends expansion)"? still confuse.
Shindulus said:
Entropy42 said:
"When you resolve the action, you add the token, and then the Sorceror does 1 damage.
On what do you put the token as when you resolve the action as SoT is in your hand? And even if there were token on SoT before, there are no more token on it when you resolve it's action, as it is in your hand.
Because the correct way of playing the sequence is not the one described by HappyDD, this is not what OP is posting.
What's OP is talking about is :
- He plays developpement
- He triggers SoT
- Opponent plays pilgrimage in response to SoT action.
Yeah, I didn't understand what the OP was asking, so I was just going off of what HappyDD laid out. For the case you are laying out, then I agree that SoT's action can be triggered, but fizzles since he is no longer in play to put the counters on.
I would hold the pilgrimage until opponent declares that he`s using the sorcerer ability