Rogue30 said:

I'd venture to say that it has to do with the timing of the thing. You "copy an effect," usually a triggered one, when you are Responding to that actual effect resolving. Essentially, you copy an effect in the same window as when that effect resolved. You "resolve an effect," usually a passive one, at a time other than when it is resolving itself. Essentially, you "resolve an effect" in a different window than the one in which that effect resolved.

So in a practical, mimicking the other card kind of way, not much difference. It seems to be more of a timing/ability type kind of distinction.

Note that "Ours for the Taking" is unique unto itself in that it is the only thing we have that copies an "ability," including (most) costs and play restrictions.

What happens if I try to copy the effect of To Be a Stag (stand a Baratheon character to return a Baratheon character with lower printed STR from your discard pile to your hand)? Is the variable (the stood character's printed STR) copied or defined anew (as 0)?

Khudzlin said:

Is it possible to copy the effect of The Prince's Plans if at least 1 character was (would have been, if the event was cancelled) returned to hand (I'm assuming that if no character has or would have been returned, it's not possible to trigger the tower), or does the original effect have to be specifically about characters?

Khudzlin said:

Maester's Tower reads: "Response: Kneel a (LEARNED) character to copy a triggered effect that returns a character from your discard or dead pile to your hand, deck, shadows area, or play." The two things to note here are:

1. The requirement here is to copy a triggered effect that does return a character from your discard pile. Compare the language to something like Rickon Stark ("Response: After an effect allows you to search your deck, kneel Rickon Stark to copy that effect."). So since the play restriction does not have "soft" language like "allows you" or "would return," there is an argument to be made here that the effect would actually have to move a character out of the discard/dead pile before it could be copied by Maester's Tower (hence, no copying a canceled Prince's Plans under this argument).
2. The requirement does not say anything about methodology, only result. So if character card is returned to hand by the original Prince's Plans, it can be copied. The fact that other card-types are included in the original effect - or that the copied effect may not return a character card because your discard pile is full of events and attachments - would not factor into it.

So it's no use trying to copy Narrow Escape with Maester's Tower, because if it has been cancelled, it hasn't returned one of your characters to play and if it has not, there are no more characters to return, right?

Khudzlin said:

Can a copy of maester's tower respond to itself? In other words, can it copy its own response effect if that response returned a character?

Is there any reason to do that instead of just copying the original effect twice with your two towers?

Well, considering that what you would copy on the first Tower would be the ability to copy (rather than what it copied), probably not.

schrecklich said:

If you play Litany of light with an asshai deck, you could dramatically increase leraned characters you control. You could have been able to return more than one character with one tower.

bias said:

Yeah, I get the point. Thanks.

Ah, I see what you are trying to do now.....

So if you copy a copy, you end up with an opportunity to copy. Does that then fizzle because it's too late to choose an ability to copy? Or can you use this copied opportunity to copy to copy the original effect again?

Is the relevance of copying the copy versus copying the original for triggering Responses? Otherwise it sounds to me like you are trading $1 for $1.

I'LL BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR!

schrecklich said:

Very convoluted and complicated, but it essentially comes down to 1 copy of Maester's Tower cannot effectively provide a Response opportunity for itself.

ktom said:

Sorry to drag this out since it's mostly pedantic but I'm still a little confused and would like to understand what is going on when an effect is copied in this game....

In your response, you say reference that the second copy will break down whether the effect as resolved or the effect as printed is copied. Is it known which one is actually copied (resolved vs. printed), or is it just too much of a corner case to have a historical precedent? In the case of copying as resolved, I don't see why it fizzles. Does it fizzle because the character has already been returned and thus can not be returned again? I would have thought that new choices could be made for the copied effect and thus a second character could be returned. I can understand that copying as printed would not work since the printed effect on Maester's Tower does not mention returning a character from the dead/discard pile.

Whether the copy copies the resolved or printed effect, it feels like copying the copy should somehow not be possible because it seems like a cheat around the one response per trigger rule: continually copying the copy really is not any different from copying the original effect multiple times. On the other hand, every copy effect in the LCG requires an additional cost, so there wouldn't be a problem with infinite copies being possible.

schrecklich said:

The conceptual problem with the wording on the Tower itself, though, is that it says "...copy a triggered effect that returns a character...," which seems to imply that the effect has to actually resolve (as opposed to still be copiable if the original had been canceled - as in "...copy a triggered effect that would return a character..."). Because of that, the Tower seems to drift into the realm of copying as resolved rather than as printed.

But the original answer above - that it copies as printed and will thus not meet its own play restriction - is probably the more correct answer that fits better with precedent.

Because this card creates lots of confusion I have asked Nate the following question :

Can you confirm if the following rulings are correct :

1) Maesters' Tower can never respond to itself, even if it has previously copied an effect that has brined back a character
2) Maester's Tower cannot copy triggered effects such as Prince's plan or Street waif that do not always return a character, even if they actually did
3) Maester's Tower can copy triggered effects such as To be a Stag, To be a Dragon, Narrow Escape (even cancelled), Viserys's ability

You will find below the answers :

"1) Correct. You would only end up with an opportunity to copy, not an original effect that can be copied. And you can only trigger the Tower once per "original effect."

2) The Tower copies results, not intention, so if the Prince's Plan or Street Waif ended up returning a character, the effect can be copied.

3) It can copy these effects if they actually return a character. If the original effect is canceled, it is not an effect that returns a character, and therefore not eligible for the Tower to copy."

Note that it is still pretty useless to copy "To be a Stag" since it will not bring back any character.

I don't think I understand the comment about how it is useless to copy To Be a Stag. Is the problem with the fact that To Be a Stag can only be used to locate Baratheon characters?

I think I may have figured out the reason it can't be used. Because the effect itself is dependent on printed cost of the Baratheon character you decided to Stand.

Yes that was the reason

REMOVED FOR BEING DUMB

Bolzano said:

Bomb said:

1. The comparison for "lower printed STR" comes from the character that you stand for the cost.
2. The Tower does not copy the cost.
3. So you have nothing to compare the printed STR of the character you want to return to.
4. In fact, as we know from the "printed" entry in the latest FAQ, if you have a nil/null value, no comparison can be made at all.

So since you do not copy the cost, you will never get a practical result from copying To Be a Stag with the Tower.