In the new spoilers of the entire Oldtown chapter, I found a location that says "Response: kneel to copy an effect that allows you to take back characthers from dead or discard pile and put them in play or in your hand".

How will this interact with Narrow Escape?

Narrow says (thanks to the FAQ), "limit once per phase". It applyes also for copied effects, only for effects actually triggered?

Can I use it to copy a NE cancelled by my opponent discarding his hand, to get my chars back anyway?

The same things applies for other copying effects like the new Rickon Stark. Can it copy a search effect that says "limit once per phase"?

And if not, what are the exact rules about this? He can't kneel to copy? He kneels to copy but the copy effect does nothing?

Aegìs said:

That's the important thing here: the location is resolving - you are not triggering the copied effect's card a second time.

Aegìs said:

Aegìs said:

Aegìs said:

Aegìs said:

ktom said:

So, Rickon Stark cannot copy plot's effect, because "when revealed" will not be met, correct?

ktom said:

I'm not sure it's oversight, but Maester's Tower has no "after ... just triggered" requirement. Do we assume that since it's a response, then it can be only triggered when returning effect triggers?

Rogue30 said:

You can Respond to "when revealed" effects. Rickon's Response can be used in Step 5 of the "reveal plots" framework window to copy any effect that happened in Steps 1-4 (or earlier in Step 5) that allowed you to search your deck.

Now, when you copy an effect , you are only copying the effect. You are not copying the cost or play restrictions of the original effect. For example, if you use Winterfell Kennels and then use Rickon to copy the effect, you do not need to pay the 1 gold or kneel the location again -- because you are looking at Rickon's cost and play restrictions in order to initiate the effect, not the original effect's. Keep in mind that you will, however, be copying the target restrictions (and anything else that goes into the resolution of the effect). When Rickon copies Winterfell Kennels, you can still only get a Direwolf.

So, copying a "when revealed" plot is just fine because the "when revealed" part is a play restriction on the initiation of the plot effect (and thus not copied), not a play restriction on the initiation of Rickon himself.

Rogue30 said:

ktom said:

A lot of confusion here.

Look at the Ours for the Taking:
Any Phase: Choose 1 location that would kneel to trigger its effect. Copy that ability (paying any additional costs), without kneeling the location.

Is it different, because the word "ability" was used? Ability = cost + effect? The word "effect" can be also read general as effect = cost + effect. And of course ability=effect.

ktom said:

ktom said:

Rogue30 said:

It is more like I wasn't sure I understood the question.

Rogue30 said:

The difference is indeed between copying an "ability" and copying an "effect." Consider also that the timing of the effects ("Any Phase" vs. "Response") can also change the way they are played and interpreted. There is also the fact that Ours for the Taking specifically tells you to pay the associated costs.

Rogue30 said:

I'm still not getting you. Maester's Tower has its own play restrictions that only let you copy an effect that moves characters from your dead/discard pile to hand, deck, Shadows, or play. If an effect has not been initiated in the action window that does that, the play restrictions for the location has not been met and it cannot be used.

That's the difference between these "copy an effect" things and the "mimic the ability" of Ours for the Taking -- which choses a card, then mimics what would happen if it were triggered. Maester's Tower and Rickon copy the effects of another ability that accomplished some particular thing. The biggest point of confusion is probably that Maester's Tower and Rickon are one type of effect, Ours for the Taking is something else entirely.

ktom said:

Yeah, but when you read Ours for the Taking, you can get something like this:
Copy that ability (reminder: pay costs as usual), without kneeling the location (exception).

It would be better if it read:
Copy that ability. Pay costs of that effect except kneeling the location. - then all would be clear, that I must pay, while normally I don't.

My point is that players can't know how it works for sure, with nothing in FAQ and very few cards using two different meanings of "copy" and "effect".

When Good for the Gander is revealed, does it matter which plot triggers first? If copy means repeat, then I could have nothing to copy yet. If copy means copy, then it's irrelevant. I guess it's the latter, since it is not a response.

ktom said:

Rogue30 said:

Rogue30 said:

You have to look at the entire context, not just the individual word.

Then, with Rickon i can´t search 2 dragons with Dance with Dragons?

Idiot question from me, but when duplicating a search with rickon i assume that all effects are copied, so summoning season or building season would also allow my opponent to search twice as well.

Underworld40k said:

Correct. Note that with Summoning Season or Building Season, choosing an opponent is part of the effect. So, if my interpretation is right, when you copy their effect by using Rickon, you'd start the copied effect with choosing an opponent again.

Ness said:

While we're at it: Has there been a definitive statement if Rickon can copy the likes of Family, Duty, Honour ? Is the relationship between "deck" and "cards of your deck" the same as between "hand" and "cards from your hand"?

Ratatoskr said:

ktom said:

Thought so. Pity. Makes sense, though. My guess is that this, like the Darkstar/Narrow Escape thing, will be played wrongly by lots of people who don't read the boards.

Ratatoskr said:

****! I have to rebuild my deck for tomorrow as I just was thinking Galbart would let me take all those dupes out of the discard pile.

Ratatoskr said:

Since no one contradicted this, I assume it is true. So in general, choose targets is part of an effect in AGoT? It seems like that is the case from the combination of "triggering the effect" and "choosing targets" into the last subsection of Step 1 of a player action window in the FAQ ("Marshal the card, or trigger the effect. Choose targets (if applicable) and proceed to step two."). I guess that means that the previous steps of determining the cost and checking the play restrictions are not copied? I think this is all straightforward. I just ask because in another fairly popular card game choosing targets is part the initiation of the effect and copy effects can not change targets unless the copy effect specifically allows for the change.

schrecklich said:

However, when you copy an effect like Summoning Season, you run into a slight problem. The effect is "...you and that opponent must each search your decks for a character, reveal it, and put it into your hands." Who is "that opponent" in the copied effect? You didn't copy any of the initiation, so the opponent chosen for the original effect wasn't copied. And what if you happened to be the "opponent" chosen for the original effect? You are no longer "that opponent" in the copied effect, right? Essentially, because you have not copied the original initiation, you are caught with an undefined term to resolve in the copied effect.

The understanding is simply that in order to resolve the copied effect, you must fill in the term, and therefore choose a "that opponent" under the same restrictions, as they apply to you, that "that opponent" was defined in the original effect.

I didn't bother to contradict Rat's original post because even though choosing an opponent is not actually "part of the effect" in the original, you have to choose new targets in order to resolve the copied effect. Since the new targets are chosen under the same target restrictions as in the original effect, it looks very similar in the end. Honestly, it's one of those "it works because it works" kind of things. It's not so much that choosing the target is part of the effect, but knowing which character the effect hits is. So as a practical matter, a new target must be chosen.

ktom said:

I see. Thanks for the correction.

So, technically, in Game of Cyvasse, which says "Each player must choose and kneel a character...", the "choose" is part of the initiation, but the "kneel" is part of the effect, right? So, practically, if my opponent plays Cyvasse, I can see which character he chooses, and decide based on that information if I want to Paper Shield him? And if I do, both chosen characters remain un-knelt, right?

Ratatoskr said:

Correct. You will always see which cards are chosen as targets before having a chance to cancel. Or, think of it this way: if targets were not chosen as part of initiation, how would you know who to save?

ktom said:

Alright, clear as day. Thank you!

ktom said:

That seems reasonable. Just to double check, which of the following is accurate:

1. If the original target is unambiguous (e.g. "choose a character"), it does not change with the copy. Only effects that refer to things like "an opponent" or "a character you control" etc. are rechosen.

or

2. Targets are always rechosen for copy effects.

schrecklich said:

I think it's the last part of your 1. If the choosing is the initiation, then it's not copied. If the effect refers to the chosen from the initiation such as "that opponent" on the two plots, then an opponent must be chosen to fulfil the effect. While not copied, you still have to choose an opponent again.

schrecklich said:

What's the difference between "copy an effect" and "resolve an effect"? (e.g. After Archmaester Marwyn is killed, resolve the "when revealed" effect of any plot card in any player's used pile.)