It might be a lazy way out, but a simple house ruling of out right banning teleportation within the inner region/dragon tower would probably alleviate your concerns.
Talisman: The Dragon Expansion - The newly announced expansion from FFG
Shadow345 said:
It might be a lazy way out, but a simple house ruling of out right banning teleportation within the inner region/dragon tower would probably alleviate your concerns.
Yeah, if FFG will not add this rule in the manual book, then i must house rule it..
I have never like the teleportation from the treasure chamber..
Thinking more about it...
You can also use the rule, that if you play with the Dragon tower, and a character kills the dungeon lord, then he must use the 0 result on the treasure chamber chart.
The simpliest house rule is to leave all of this other stuff alone and any shortcut always lands on the Valley of Fire as the best possible outcome. Anyone without a Talisman is therefore out of luck. We also have a mod for that space that makes it quite dangerous by its namesake (something missing from game since 1E), but that's a separate issue.
Don't make you're mods any fussier than necessary; targeting the VoF as the end point for any form of shortcutting (instead of the CoC) covers all backdoors and much of the other stuff already raised.
BY THE BY: I now know the alternative inner region is tougher than the standard one, but I'm wondering if that includes a change to the VoF. If not, oh well, but I would be interested to know.
JCHendee said:
The simpliest house rule is to leave all of this other stuff alone and any shortcut always lands on the Valley of Fire as the best possible outcome. Anyone without a Talisman is therefore out of luck. We also have a mod for that space that makes it quite dangerous by its namesake (something missing from game since 1E), but that's a separate issue.
I think that the Dragon tower itself has no valley of fire space. except the other side of the board where you must travel through the whole inner region.
But they could be a chance that you need a talisman at the beginning of the tower as in 3th edition
I look forward to the rulebook.
I stick with the idea for now.. of using the 0 result on the treasure chamber..
but my opponent must agree with it too...
Does Fantasy Flight have a history of pre-releasing stuff at Gencon? I'm really hoping I can get an early copy of this expansion next week to bring back home!
To sum up Dragon Hunter with its 2 dice added together in battle: STUPID.
Yeah, Dragon Hunter has a bit of advantage early in the game, especially with the Fate.
One thing I noticed, they say, Dragon Priestess can sacrifice a follower to pray at a dragon instead of fighting it, and can raise her chances by sacrificing more followers, yet another ability of hers says shen may use her followers to add 1 to the praying score, I guess they mean, using them means sacrificing them. Or am I wrong? If I am, then they're saying it wrong..
No, she has two separate abilities as I see it. Firstly, she can take Cultists as Followers and use them for +1 per Cultist used when she is praying. Then if she encounters a Dragon she may make a sacrfice (Follower, Object or Spell), allowing her to pray, which triggers her previous ability. I can see her spamming useless Spells away to the Dragon and getting stat-boosts in return.
Hmm lets compare Dragon Hunter to Assasin.
Dragon Hunter can't use deathblow vs other players, he can't use it against sentinel etc.
Power of deathblow < power of assasinate (in both cases you are 1 dice ahead, but deathblow adds a risk)
Assasin has 1 more fate
Dragon Hunter has an Axe
I'd say his power is equal, maybe slightly less than power of the assasin.
Priestess looks quite powerful when you check her more carefully. She can use ALL followers to get praying bonus, not only cultist followers... and she starts in the middle region...
Dam said:
To sum up Dragon Hunter with its 2 dice added together in battle: STUPID.
As I see, nothing better than the RAW Assassin, which you and many others dislike. To be extra proficient in battle is not a 100% guarantee of speedy levelling and subsequent victory, at least not in a game like Talisman where you may draw anything but an average of Enemies. I saw many times an Assassin player complain because he can't find Enemies and pick on Characters instead, without doing very much. I also saw the Assassin get a higher Craft than Strength, then don't know where to go without a Dungeon board. The Dragon Hunter at least cannot harass Characters. I just would have made him a Str:2 Cft:3 to compensate his powerful ability and the starting Axe. In combat he's already an improved Warrior.
The actual problem comes from the interaction with Fate, which the developers may have overlooked. Doubles seldomly happens; if you can spend Fate to reroll the die of you choice, it's even less probable. Fate screws up the apparent limitation pretty well. What I do not understand is why they don't stick to previous decisions, like "Neutral Characters with advantages in battle get 1 single fate" (Warrior, Troll, Knight, Gladiator, Ogre Chieftain). The strangest thing is that for all these Characters a Fate in battle doesn't matter too much; for Dragon Hunter it will matter sometimes, and he gets 2 points.
Dragon Priestess looks fine but I think she's very weak if played without the Dragon expansion. I assume that the expansion will add some Cultists along with many Dragons, allowing her to use her two situational abilities. Moreover, the Dragon Rage immunity is only applicable if you play with the Dragon Expansion. 5 Fate and Evil Alignment is the only trait that makes this Character shine outside the Dragon invasion, I don't think that the ritual ability is much better if compared to the praying bonuses of Priest and Monk (or Knight!). You'll need Followers and you have no way to get them if you don't draw cards. Middle region will be a dangerous place for her to stay at the beginning of the game, she has two Spells but that's it.
Dragon Hunter is very powerful. His ability does me think about the barbarian from 3th edition. if i am right..
Dragon Priestess is also very good.
If you can make her good, and she will land every time on the chapel to get spells, then you can easily use them to sacrifce at a dragon, to gain the benefit of the temple.
And with the followers, you can use them to add 1 to the dice roll...
She is better than she look like at first glance..
Dragon Hunter, had his deathblow only been available vs Dragons would've been a very nice, solid character. Effectively 4/3 with a free-ride to the Middle Region on offer via Axe. Teleport to a Dragon and roll 2 dice vs Dragons. He wouldn't have been so over the top. Why does he get 2 dice vs all Enemies? Minor plus that at least they made it Enemies and not Creatures so he can't use it against Endings or LoD/EK.
I have to admit, the wording on the Dragon Hunter's ability is rather poor:
"If you make a deathblow and roll doubles, you are automatically defeated regardless of your attack score."
It makes it sound like the deathblow and the doubles are two different things, and then if you pull it off you kill yourself.
It should read, "If you roll doubles you make a deathblow, and the Enemy is automatically defeated regardless of attack scores."
That having been said, I'm ridiculously excited about this expansion and grateful as always for the previews. I was worried Dragons was never going to see the light of day, but now I see the delay was only so they could do it right.
Xotl, I think the card's wording is supposed to mean, "If you ATTEMPT a death blow and roll doubles, you are defeated..." It seems to me that this should happen almost 17% of the time, which means it's less common than, say, rolling a 1 (that should be about a 30% chance). From my own experience, where I am toaded by the Enchantress pretty much every single game, you still take a risk when attempting a death blow. But yeah, using Fate pretty much negates this from happening. I predict that it will still happen to me at a very inconvenient time, though......dice hate me. I'm not sure that making the death blow only 17% of the time would be worthwhile as a characteristic...but as others have said, Talisman is a random enough game that just because you have a particular talent doesn't mean you're going to get to use it. I've played the so-called overpowered Gladiator many times, and only won once. It just depends on whether you happen to get the followers you need. Many of the characters have similar abilities....they are really chance-reliant. Sometimes you luck out. Mostly not. Sometimes a bit of both: I've used the Leprechaun's abilities to be rolling in dough, but never get the chance to spend it. If Talisman were more strategic as a game, I'd agree that the characters' powers would have to be very similar to each other, as in City of Thieves. But I like that it's not (much as I like CoT, it irks me that the characters are so similar). I've long since given up worrying about characters' abilities; my favourite experience of Talisman gameplay is the "let's roll the dice and see what madness ensues" type.
In the 2ED Dragon Hunter could use deathblow only against Dragons and there was no Fate to save him from the doubles roll. It was balanced a little better that way I think. Still, you could interpret the wording on the card as the first, unmodified roll (house rule, I guess) but nobody would gimp themselves on purpose.
I didn't even think about the Fate when I updated my Goblin Fanatic to the R4ED. I guess I'll have to modify him to close this loophole.
Xotl said:
I have to admit, the wording on the Dragon Hunter's ability is rather poor:
"If you make a deathblow and roll doubles, you are automatically defeated regardless of your attack score."
It makes it sound like the deathblow and the doubles are two different things, and then if you pull it off you kill yourself.
It should read, "If you roll doubles you make a deathblow, and the Enemy is automatically defeated regardless of attack scores."
That having been said, I'm ridiculously excited about this expansion and grateful as always for the previews. I was worried Dragons was never going to see the light of day, but now I see the delay was only so they could do it right.
There is nothing wrong with the wording on the card.
He makes already a death blow without rolling doubles.
The double roll only means that he hits himself in battle.
Velhart said:
Xotl said:
I have to admit, the wording on the Dragon Hunter's ability is rather poor:
"If you make a deathblow and roll doubles, you are automatically defeated regardless of your attack score."
It makes it sound like the deathblow and the doubles are two different things, and then if you pull it off you kill yourself.
It should read, "If you roll doubles you make a deathblow, and the Enemy is automatically defeated regardless of attack scores."
That having been said, I'm ridiculously excited about this expansion and grateful as always for the previews. I was worried Dragons was never going to see the light of day, but now I see the delay was only so they could do it right.
There is nothing wrong with the wording on the card.
He makes already a death blow without rolling doubles.
The double roll only means that he hits himself in battle.
My point exactly. Let's say you get attacked by an enemy, so you say "I make a deathblow!" and roll two dice for your attack score. However, if you roll doubles (say two 6'es or two 1's) you are automatically defeated, no matter what your final attack score is. So it's a special ability with a slight disadvantage, at least if you don't have any fate left.
Talismaniac said:
My point exactly. Let's say you get attacked by an enemy, so you say "I make a deathblow!" and roll two dice for your attack score. However, if you roll doubles (say two 6'es or two 1's) you are automatically defeated, no matter what your final attack score is. So it's a special ability with a slight disadvantage, at least if you don't have any fate left.
True, it´s a very powerful ability
Without fate, there is a chance you can lose a life
But i would take that risk, if i have plenty of lives and no fate left.
He is a very good character in battle.
I dont think deathblow is such an overpowered ability. The ability to use it against any enemy is obviously there, so he is usable even without using the Dragon King version of the game. You must realize that he rolls only two dice, doesnt add his strength, meaning he has the same chance of defeating a str 7 dragon as losing against it, not mentioning the double roll, especially if hes low on fate, which he has only two from the start.
I see the Dragon Priestess much more overpowered, having fate 5 as an evil character is much more overpowered to me, given she starts in the middle region, so she has access to the Temple from the start, adding her ability to add any number of her followers to her praying roll, having fate 5 is wicked enough, the ability to pray at any dragon is just a slight bonus. She simply starts the game visiting the temple as much as she can, until she has spent all her fate, after that she will already be ahead of the others. Then she simple replenishes her fate at the graveyard, finds her way into the middle region and continues attacking temple.
Velhart said:
There is nothing wrong with the wording on the card.
He makes already a death blow without rolling doubles.
The double roll only means that he hits himself in battle.
Ah, I see. Sorry about the misunderstanding there.
Never mind my previous post regarding the deathblow.
I read it as "roll 2 dice and add them together to determine your attack score"
Theyre actually rolled to determine your attack roll, well... thats not half as bad. Good thing it applies to enemies only.
Cruan said:
I see the Dragon Priestess much more overpowered, having fate 5 as an evil character is much more overpowered to me, given she starts in the middle region, so she has access to the Temple from the start, adding her ability to add any number of her followers to her praying roll, having fate 5 is wicked enough, the ability to pray at any dragon is just a slight bonus. She simply starts the game visiting the temple as much as she can, until she has spent all her fate, after that she will already be ahead of the others. Then she simple replenishes her fate at the graveyard, finds her way into the middle region and continues attacking temple.
I don't think that she will stay very long in the middle region.
The middle region is too dangerous for a starting character.
But i see her already encountering lots of dragons, and offering spells, objects etc, to claim the bonus from the temple in the outer region, or other regions..
The first thing what i would do, is visiting the mystic...
Yesterday I tried a game with these new characters proxies. Hunters deathblow really isnt such an advantage, as it only works on enemies, he still loses to characters and non enemies creatures. Can imagine hell be much more useful when the Dragon comes around, still got a plenty of double rolls while deathblowing.
On the other hand, the Priestess spent almost the whole time in the middle region switching among the Oasis, Forgotten Valley and the Temple, gathering followers and becoming powerful really fast, theres no need for her to go to the outer region, most of the time, apart from replenisihing her fate at the Graveyard, i see no reason for her to visit the Mystic, as her becoming another allignment other than evil with her high fate is a waste.