Hallo,
in yesterday’s session my group and I diverged about the telescopic sight’s stacking of bonuses.

A player was engaged with an opponent in melee; another player wanted to shoot this same opponent with his telescopic-sight-mounted laser rifle: he was on extreme range.

The core handbook states that «a weapon with a telescopic sight ignores penalties for long and extreme range as long as the shooter takes a Full Action to aim». By how it’s written, I understand that the aiming action gives no other bonuses than allowing the character to ignore the -30 for extreme range (or -10 for long range) in his next turn; it doesn’t give the +20 one would expect from the full-action aiming.

Yet the shooting player claimed he still had to get that +20 bonus: as a proof he said that there would be no use in mounting the telescopic sight, for the full-action aim alone (+20) on long range (-10) would make the telescopic sight useless.

He was convincing, so I ruled he only had a -10 for shooting into melee, yet I wonder: how would you have managed it? Does the aiming bonus actually stack with the telescopic sight bonus?

Having read them both the aim action doesn't specify a range category but the wording of telescopic scope does seem to imply your interpretation so as GM I would agree with you and say it is your call.

And shooting into melee from extreme range is fully stretching the veil of credibility if you ask me (even for a Vindicare). It is about as credible as the bad guy getting a chance to dodge a hidden sniper (and have the shot hit the shooter's mate) and is power gamey poor roleplaying of the highest order no matter what the RAW say or how high the shooter's BS.

Try telling your player that a 'real' sniper would understand that the travel time involved may well mean that it is their buddies head in the way at the moment of impact.

Go on, have the heretic dodge and have the shot hit the shooter's mate in the head, that'll learn 'em. (I know too far, just playing devil's advocate again, and yeah I know, that is heresy).

Zakalwe said:

Thank you for your reply: I'm glad my interpretation wasn't wrong; rather, it is shared.

Zakalwe said:

You're right, I had to, and now I regret I didn't: yet the combat was quite static, with the melee player grasping a handle on the wall with a hand and defending himself as he could with the other and a monstrous octopus emerging from a toxic underhive lake and attacking him.
I feared the floating one couldn't make it on his own: but at the end it was him dealing almost all the damage to the creature.
And in that situation, the shooting from afar seemed appropriate, for it looked like the desperate attempt to aid an ally by a character who couldn't approach closer due to the site's topography.

By the way, likely a radical inquisitor wouldn't be considering a devil's advocate heretical: so, with a bit of luck you could get off with just ten years of service under said inquisitor.

Well I would probably let them if it was a monstrous octopus too (assuming by monstrous you mean really big).

Ten years service to the Inquisition aye? Couldn't be that much worse than what I'm doing now and I hear the travel is great..

Berengario said:

Of course it does !

Why it would not ?

Telescopic sight simply allows its user to ignore the malus for shooting at long or extreme range, at the cost of using the aiming full action, which means you must wait one full round before being able to shoot (so, you may be dead before shooting, if your target is aware of your goal).

As your player pointed, aiming with an Accurate Basic Weapon gives +30 to BS.

Why using a telescopic sight, in this case if it nullify that bonus ?

Furthermore, your Career may allow you to buy a Talent that do exactly the same (i.e. ignoring range's malus), without needing to aim.

If you aim you get a bonus to hit, +10 for a half action, +20 for a full. If you aim whilst using a telescopic sight you are still aiming so will still get the to hit bonus as well as the removal or range penalties if a full round aim action is taken.

Zakalwe said:

Yes, big enough to swallow him whole. And with a single eye inside its mouth. And with many rows of sharp teeth inside that same mouth.

Zakalwe said:

Ten years service to the Inquisition aye? Couldn't be that much worse than what I'm doing now and I hear the travel is great..

lol

"See the universe", they said!
I've heard that only the cooking isn't that great, if you don't happen to have a ratling cook available (in which case your purse will likely be constantly and inexplicably empty).

DarkLoic said:

What you say is more or less what my player said and in fact he sounded convincing enough: what you say just strengthens his remarks.
And this is what makes me uncertain: in fact both ways (that +20 bonus from aiming stacking and not stacking) look likely to me; simply, one is more realistic, the other more appealing, rulewise.

I'll have to ponder it longer.

Thank you all for your replies!

The Telescopic sight is useful even without stacking bonuses, more so for Extreme range unless you have time to line it up (which you should, if you're using a Telescopic sight...). The reason being it negates a -30 penalty. At long range it only negates -10, but unlike an Aim action, it allows you to take a second Aim after to gain a greater bonus. While useless in the heat of a firefight (usually) it is a very powerful tool in Sniper roles, when you have several rounds (potentially, depending on their awareness) to prepare your attacks, and they don't know where you are.

I would rule the Accurate bonus applies though. So a Full Aim provides the benefit of the scope, +10 from Accurate, and the extra damage based on DoS.

I'm going to have to agree with your player, the way the rule reads to me is that to negate the penalties you have to use a full aim action no where does it imply you would not as well gain the +20 bonus. To me if I didn't get that aiming bonus why not buy a red-dot laser sight instead? +20 for aim and +10 for laser sight and +10 for Accurate, gives +10 for extreme range and gives me a +30 for long range.

Which when you think about it on say a long las I can hit someone up to 600m away just as well with a laser sight as a telescopic sight and from 300m up to 449m I can hit someone better with a laser sight than a telescopic sight. That doesn't seem to make sense, actually what I'm going to do now is rule Red-Dot sights don't confer their bonus at Long and Extreme ranges.

But once again ultimately it comes down to what you feel is right for your game and players, but in my opinion it's not stacking bonuses it's removing a penalty thus the bonus from aiming should stay.

First off you can't have a Red-dot laser and a Telescopic sight on the same weapon because they both take up a "sight" slot on the weapon, unless it's a house rule or it's a costume build weapon to have two "sight" slots on the weapon.

Now that is besides the point, I agree with everyone that says that the full round aim action (+20%) is added on to the to that fact that the range penalties, but here's my suggestion if you don't like the fact of the player getting basically a +50% with the Telescopic sight at Extreme range, +60% if you include the Red-dot laser and a +30% at Long range, +40% if you include the Red-dot laser, let the Telescopic sight negate the penalties of extreme range and Long range penalties but only give him the full round aim bonus of +20% to the Long range shot, because then that is basically a flat +30% across the board for using the Telescopic sight at Long and Extreme range.

I didn't take into the account for the rules of "accurate" for weapons, I was just saying for any range weapon not just the Long las or Hunting rifle and their variants in other books.

It's not stacking bonuses. The sight removes a penalty in very specific circumstances.

As others have pointed out, a telescopic sight makes no sense whatsoever if it didn't get the bonus for aiming too. Both in relation to the red-dot laser sight (which with a Full Aim will turn extreme range into a +/-0 too, and long range into a +20, more with Accurate weapons) and the Marksman talent (which has exactly the same benefit without requiring to waste a turn to a Full Aim and doesn't block the sight slot to get the +10 BS on single shots instead). A telescopic sight already only makes sense if you don't get Marksman.

So as a player, I would try to convince you of the fact. And if you didn't listen, I'd draw the conclusions and never again use a telescopic sight. Your call. I can work with any decision. Just another useless item then *shrug*

What about if you have a best quality cybernetic eye(with the telescopic ability) and a red dot laser sight. Or even better the cybernetic eye and a telescopic sight.

+ Marksman too = maybe not shot herd round the world but from around the world