Both Rogue Trader and Deathwatch have two options for generating a characters characteristics, by randomly rolling the dice, or by a point buy system. For both of them the choice is between a 2d10 roll for each characteristic, then the option to reroll one of them and take the second roll. If you go point-buy, both give players 100 points to spend with a max of 20 in any characteristic.

The difference between them is that RT claims the characteristics will be better with point-buy, DW claims they will be worse. Which one is correct ?

Do the math: There are nine stats. A 2d10 roll averages 11. That's a total of 99. Since you get one reroll which presumably boosts a low roll, the odds say a rolled character will have a stat total in excess of 100... unless your dice decide to crap upon you. (I estimate the reroll increases the average by about 3 points, but it's late and my math-fu is weak. Season with salt as desired.)

But, that point buy has no risk of a bad roll, and you can put points exactly where you need them. (And in convenient multiples of 5 or 10, no less. Min-max those stat bonuses!) Given the very narrow gap, I'd probably point buy if I had the choice.

Cheers,

- V.

Even if the average roll is 100++, the versatility of min-max-ing is always a great temptation. So players can simply make a character as they want, not dependent on random rolls. I'd say point buy is more 'tempting'; players can determine their strengths (and weaknesses) as they see fit.

btw using the tools I made, I often got a total rolls equals to 120-140, with only several times below 110.

when i rolled the stats for my first character i almost ended up with 40 and higher in all nine stats, can't do that with point buy. Also never use dice rolling tools, they tend to get stuck on a cycle meaning that if you roll high on a d100 it will continue to cycle in the highs unless you reset the program after every roll.

One benefit to point buy that cannot be overlooked is judiciously choosing stats to give you the highest characteristic bonuses. For many characteristics the bonus is far more important than the full value. A Strength or Toughness of 43 really doesn't give you much benefit over a characteristic of 40, because the bonus of 4 is all that really matters. So a randomly generated character may have higher total characteristics, but his total bonuses will likely be lower because a point buy character won't "waste" points where they don't provide real benefit.

With rolling, your stats are more likely to fall into the middle range due to the distribution on 2d10. With point buy, it's more likely that you will pick extremes, since the benefits of having a few extremely high characteristics generally outweigh the drawbacks of low characteristics. In most cases, having a Ballistics skill of 45 and a Weapon Skill of 25 or vice versa is better than having both at 37.

And that's why I prefer rolling them...

I prefer point buy for two reasons: every player can decide where he excels and where he is weak, which the dice do not allow, and every player has exactly the same opportunity to be great. When it comes to equipment and contacts and resources, equality is less important, since such things change hands like pennies, but (most) characteristics have one, un-improvable base value upon which a maximum level is based, and having one player starting with 40's accross the board and another with only one higher then 35 will almost invariably taint the gameplay for the weaker character.

Just my 2 cents, but I've never seen anyyone I play with complain.

Void_onion213 said:

This isn't true, unless the dice roller is horribly coded or uses an outdated/flawed randomization engine (like the default one in the C++ language). While there is no such thing as true randomness on a computer, dice algorithms are still advanced enough that you'd never notice.

TiLT said:

A good random number algorithm is probably more reliably random than a dice. Especially a cheap one.

At the very least, it's much easier to test how fair a languages random number generator is by making it generate a few million numbers and seeing how they are distributed.

Well, I was using the standard pseudo-code though. And my group (also) tend to be able to 'manipulate' the roll, so...

Anyways, point is the Point Buy method offer some flexibility and full customization. Some players would love that.

It depends, I normally allow 10 rolls, with the players choosing where the points go. This way if you wanted a master swordsmen, but you roll for only a 39 on your 2nd roll, well then you would be screwed. But for point buy, it depends on the player really. Some do min max and make it obvious, which only upsets me.

Point buy is better ingame

Rolling is more fun as it's also a gamble. And yeah, we also do the ranek7212 trick by letting players assign their roles to their scores. To follow the book's way of rolling to me is insane as it means you can end up with an explorer with an intelligence of 28 if you're unlucky. Nobody wants that, the class is essentially not worth playing that way (unless you have someone who enjoys sucking badly at his job, which is rather at odds with the idea of a rogue trader retinue).

We sometimes also allow for point buy of 110 or a roll of 2d10 + 2 or 3. Yes you get above average characters that way, but it also means as a gm you don't need to be so 'gentle' :-D

Ranek7212 said:

This - the "happy medium" between completely random character generation and pointbuy minmaxing - is how my current DH group did it as well. It allows characters to actually have a reason for why they use the career they have whilst still preserving an amount of "natural" randomness.

Let's be honest here; if you roll every stat randomly you would, in many cases, have to pick your career according to the dice, not as per what you wanted to play. Which, as I recall, is actually what at least one of the rulebooks suggests (by making career selection come after stat determination). Which in turn means that, whilst being more realistic, you may end up with a completely different character than the one you wanted to have, thus lowering people's fun. Unless the player in question doesn't mind at all what he is going to play.

Most people will have a character class in mind before the game starts. you can still go with your desired class but your stat line might suggest other wise. what you can allow players is a limited number of re-rolls. could be help full if one of the players has cursed dice. had an issue with a gm once, made the character at home with the 2d10 rule but he decided to use the 100 point system. the 2 ways of producing stats should not be forced, but presented as options for individual players to decide

I like the random rolls for stats in the Warhammer system. I would only use it in a gritty game system like this, because it replicates another sad truth about humanity: We often end up in different jobs than the ones we're "born" to do. So sure, you might be a lousy shot, but you still managed to get this cushy Arch-Militant position. At least you've got the tactical and strategical know-how to compensate. It's all about making the best out of the situation and using other strengths to compensate for your weaknesses.

Having said that, I do on occasion allow a re-roll if what the player got would have gimped his concept. That's just no fun for anyone. If it doesn't gimp him however, a bit of weakness within the concept makes for more interesting roleplaying. That Navigator might steer the ship into warp storms suspiciously often compared to what his Navigator House said when you hired him, but who's going to dare mention it?

TiLT said:

That's the potential issue I meant. For some character concepts, you can find a workaround explanation as for why your character is in the career you play him in. For others it just doesn't make sense, when the stats basically scream that the guy should have been assigned elsewhere (more important for DH or DW, but can conflict with certain origins in RT as well). Case by case thingie, obviously, but it can potentially ruin a player's concept. Something to keep in mind, depending on the players and the careers they would want to choose.

Our take on this is rerolling one stat (and keeping the better roll of the two) and allowing to switch one (or two as it were), to allow some customization. I.e. switch BS with Int if you wanted to.

Also we discard and reroll any stats where there are more below 10 than above to avoid "useless" characters.

Another option is to have them roll - so you maintain the potential benefits of chance - but allow them to move 20 of their points around between stats, lowering one (or more) to increase another. (or others) (in this case you state that no stat can be lowered by more than 10)

I ruled players can choose either option - however, if you choose to roll randomly you gain a fate point - upto your starting maximum. I figure if you are willing to risk your stats at generation, you should be granted a potential boon for doing so.

Our GM let us roll 2d10 and then assign the results where we wanted, or take a 40 in each stat and start with only a single fate point (the penalty for playing it safe).

Over all I think its working out well. Though the few characters who chose to roll there stats had the potential for superior stats they typically came out with several stats below 40 and some drastically so after origin adjustments (toughness 25).

But, when things get hairy they typically have more fate points to draw upon.