My group encountered some chaos marines. After dealing with them, one of the players commented that taking the heavy bolter from the fallen chaos marines would boost their onw ability to deal with what else was on the planet.

The other players all refused saying the equipment would be tainted. I agreed that would be the general outlook of a marine, so they wouldn't use the weapons or ammo left lying about.

Having read some of the novels, this appears to be the case in the setting.

However, would the stuff actually be tainted in any way, or would this merely be one of those things assumed by people in the setting?

And whether it's actually tainted or not, would there be ways to cleanse it? Though I'm thinking a techmarine or techpriest would be needed for that...

Don Raccoon said:

It is indeed possible to ritually reconsecrate the wargear of Traitors - for example, the Axe Morkai wielded by Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves, is the reforged weapon of a Chaos Champion. I imagine it would take some time to perform the correct rites, so it's hardly the sort of thing that could be used in the midst of batlte

In Dead Sky, Black Sun...Uriel Ventris and his partner used the bolters of the Iron Warriors, but they did so with extreme revulsion at using the weapons of such a vile foe and it didn't help that the weapons themselves were decorated in such a way that scream taint. Though beyond that I think they were common bolters. They could use them without being corrupted, it was just a matter of personal taste that these weapons were not Ultramarine weapons, they were Traitor weapons. They divested themselves of them as soon as they could get their hands on "proper" weapons.

Unless there was something mechanically different, then gamewise I would say there shouldn't be a problem, though a 'mastercrafted' bolter for a traitor marine might mean something pretty different from a loyal marine. I would say that there would be a lasting effect though, possibly a loss of renown. There could be a greater loss of renown though for failing a mission due to lack of equipment when one could have used the Fallen's bolter.

On the other hand, in Prospero Burns, the Space Wolves made it a point of their strategy to start an assault using the weapons of any of the fallen enemy before using their own, and the explanation for it was pretty logical. Basically they said by doing this it helped them asses the weaponry and defense of the enemy, and once the enemy arrayed their defenses around the fact that the Space Wolves were attacking with their own weapons, the Space Wolves would switch back to their Bolters.

So there is some literary precendence perhaps.

Most Space Marines would probably view them as a weapon of last resort. Typical weapons like bolters, heavy weapons, or chainswords should be relatively free of any sort of Daemonic Gifts or Blessings. As said above, any sort of "mastercrafted" weapon of a champion or lord would probably have some kind of Daemonic boon on it, which may slightly corrupt a normal space marine if it was handled.

qcipher said:

Whose weapons did they use?

For me, this is a 'no way' for a couple of reasons. Firstly that a Marine's wargear has been handed down for hundreds of years, lovingly cared for and treated with prayers and sacred oils before use. He is NOT going to pick up a weapon that was used by a traitor, and no doubt doused in unholy ichor on a regular basis. It's corrupting, and any Chaplain is going to want to put a bolt into their head for doing so. I would have no qualms about dishing out Corruption Points for handling and using chaos-tainted gear. I'd give out a point straight away to the first PC to start picking up and handling a weapon handled by a traitor, by way as a warning shot, and keep piling it on if they kept hold of it.

And it might not even work properly: The machine spirits are tainted with choas and are not going to like being handled by a loyal marine.

The second issue is metagame. DW is not a game where you loot corpses. Kit is carefully rationed via Requisition and wargear talents, and Marines don't care for looting. I don't want the requisition 'economy' broken by players loading up with stolen chaos weapons!

Context is key. A chapter that has only recently turned to the ruinous powers or is still in the process might still have untainted gear in all senses, just on the verge of being used for fell purposes.

Traitors who remain outside of the eye of terror such as Alpha Legion may well have gear that isn't corrupted by the warp but whose machine spirit is now used to murdering humanity and has been embellished with anti-Imperial heraldry. A marine might be disgusted to use it but it might not necessarily give them insanity or corruption to do so. After all, plenty of marine bolters killed humans during the great crusade...

Now full blown traitors who are outright worshipping the chaos powers would likely have gear that is both desecrated by use (killing loyalists) and by the warp (maintained with corrupted machine oils, exposed to the sanity shattering influence of daemon worlds). Some gear might not be actually warp-tainted, but that isn't safe to assume. In any case, corruption and insanity are both up for grabs here.

Siranui said:

Post-human civilisation incompatible with the Imperium, essentially little more than brains in mechanised constructs. The warriors of Tra (3rd Great Company, to use more familiar parlance) dropped from a gantry overhead to ambush the enemy, but didn't have their own weapons in their hands at the time (they'd been climbing, afterall), so they took up the guns of the foes they'd just slain in melee and opened fire with those. By the time their enemies' energy shields had adapted to counter the Wolves' stolen weapons, the Space Wolves had taken the opportunity to discard those weapons and draw their bolters.

Savage pragmatism at its most effective.

Siranui said:

It's a bit to mono-explanatory though. Marines can be vastly different. From noble, honourable guardians of faith to no-holds-barred former criminals. There is no telling what a marine would do or wouldn't. Also I doubt that after firing 100 shots from a Chaos-tainted Boltgun and pure Space Marine would have turned into a renegade. Some taint, yes, but there should be a virtual ceiling if that's all he's doing.

It has to fit the PC in the end. The problem with the no-holds-barred-I-ll-pick-up-the-Chaos-Bolter Marine is that he'll probably touch other things or do other things with little concern too - and the sum of that may land the PC into trouble in the end.

Alex

Exactly. Small corruption leads to greater corruption. And they can have some CP for it!

Siranui said:

Just pointing out that in Prospero Burns the Space Wolves had a strategy involving looted weapons of the enemy and it seemed sound. Needless to say there were Imperial agents who saw this and were quite concerned until they heard the reasons why. Once the battle was over any weapons taken were just for trophies. Any issues you have with the plausibility of that should be taken up with the author.

Given the STC origins of human gear (even degenerate human) much of any gear found (especially weaponry) would likely be easily figured out by the advanced combat mindset of the Astartes. I doubt they'd need too much time to figure out which end to point at the enemy and which button to push (if it's Chaos gear or near human gear).

What about my idea of costing someone Renown for using a looted Chaos (or Xeno for that matter) weapon?

Could do, but the Corruption rules need more love and use!

I don't have Deathwatch yet because I'm waiting for the french version to come out so, excuse me if I say something stupid but... my input is this :
Marines are a bit like paladins in a world were there are consecrated and foul things, superstitions and so on. Thus, no marine would use a weapon defiled by an enemy if not for a good reason... otherwise I fear he shows some corruption here. So, as a GM, I would ask the player why he wants to use it and judge his answer.

1. If he doesn't believe the weapon to be tainted, I'd give him corruption points only.
2. If he does but comes up with a good reason to do so, I'd have him make a Willpower test (with a modifier depending on how good is his reason) : success meaning -10 penalty to use, failure -20, and critical failure (94-100 roll) -30. Why ? It's all psychological...
3. And depending on this answer, after the mission, he could seek cleansing for this sin from the chaplain, or be judged to need more endoctrination... I can't imagine all the possibilities but that would be some issue...

Well, just to give voice to an opposite point of view: what greater sin is there than to fail in your Mission? To be unable to carry out your orders? To violate the sacred Oath of Moment?

Imagine that some of your battle brothers will die simply because you were too picky about which weapon you can or can't use. And for what? Because of some perceived taint that would stain your hands? For Emperor's sake, you fought against innumerable xenos and heretics, you spat in the face of daemons; what harm could come from using an overly - and with a bad taste - decorated bolter? Chaos taint? Feh, "great empires are not built with timidity".

Of course, there would be those who would not understand. Weak-willed mortals, that's for certain. And some of your more puritanical 'brothers' such as the vaunted Ultramarines with their 'holier-than-thou' attitude. So if you decide to use the weapons of the Enemy, do so discreetly. No need to flash that icon of Khorne on the looted chainsword hilt around

Also consider not wearing a helmet while armed with chaos weapons (or find some means to erase mission logs). And remove any unwelcome witnesses from existence: in 99% of encounters these would only be Imperial Guard, and these puny mortals are cannon fodder anyway. If some of them need to die so that the Emperor's Finest could fight on, so be it.

Erborn said:

The greatest victory the Enemy can win is to convince us that they are no threat. Many have fallen to such a belief as you present, the believe that they could take up the weapons of the enemy and use them for the good of the Imperium without cost to their own soul, and many of those who have fallen are oblivious to their descent.

Which is the preferable option, to triumph in damnation or to die pure?

"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven"

There can be no absolution for failure, and ultimate victory is the only criteria to judge one's actions. History, after all, is written by the victors, and losers will never be pious and pure in the eyes of posterity. The one invariable indignity heaped upon the vanguished is the besmirsching of their good names.

Of course, you would know the truth. No matter what will be said later, your soul will remain pure. But keep in mind that if you do die pure, there is every chance that ten thousand more people would 'live in damnation' or die as well, simply because you were not strong enough to win. It's really not much of a choice. At some point in the Long War you will stain your hands or someone else will suffer because you won't.

Erborn, I'm afraid your place is not in Deathwatch... But in Black Crusade you'd make sense.

Erborn said:

The means are not more important than the ends. If a marine cannot succeed without honour and purity, then he does not deserve to succeed. The lure of Chaos is strong, and it starts by trying to seduce pure marines in such simple ways: The use of heretical weapon to save an innocent is the first step to darkness. The path to hell is paved with good intentions...

Well, I did mention I wanted to give voice to an alternate point of view

Don't get me started on 'honor and purity' of the space marines though...

I'm rather curious as to what the effects of wearing, say, terminator and dreadnought armor taken from Chaos Legionnares could be, worn unknowingly or unwillingly, respectively. In particular, I'm thinking it'd be interesting for a storyline in which someone is made into a dreadnought under the aegis of a radical inquisitor, and eventually suspects that

A) his injuries didn't actually warrant him being entombed here in the first place, and

B) that the machine itself is corrupt.

Only given his freedom when it is time to kill the enemies of Mankind, he's entirely helpess outside. Worse, a dreadnought's memories are screwed with whenever he sleeps, and so he doesn't always remember what happened, and he may be awakened only a decade on average.

It also depends on the Chapter the Space Marine is from and how they view such things. In my DW game, there is a RoB recreation of the Relictors, a Librarian at that, amongst the KT. Their Chapter, in current DW timeline, has been renamed and repurposed from their old beliefs to that of taking up the weapons of the Enemy, specifically those weapons of Chaos. Now, not every Relictor knows this secret; I treat this much like the way Dark Angels treat the Fallen, very much a secret and only certain circles within the Chapter know about the whole affair.

I just can't wait until the secret or the corruption cannot be contained

Deinos said:

Love the dreadnaught idea. I've got one hundred thrones that says he's a goner!

This could serve as a kick-off or mid-campaign turning point, provided the GM allowed room for redemption/atonement/vengence as campaign themes. Balancing redemption against vengence could be interesting, your marine wants revenge on the dirty xanthite inquisitor that did this to him, but following that path while encased in the armour is a sure road to damnation.

Oh the pathos!

You have a sick and twisted imagination, and I love it.

SonofDorn said:

I myself started a Mini-Campaign in which the Characters stumble upon the lost Star Fortress of the Star Scorpions Chapter (which was replaced by the Mentor Legion as 888th Chapter later on). They were lost in the warp and turned to the ruinous powers some 100 years ago. The Warp Capable Star Fortress was the sighted and some Reclaimers en route to the Crusade Banner Company began to explore the Fortress (now embedded in a Space Hulk) after calling for assistance. The Star Scorpions turned to nurgle to sustain them over the years and desecrated much of their equipment and the Chapter Relics.

With a Mentor Legion player (who dreams of reclaiming the Equipment for his Chapter), the Reclaimers who sort of specialize in Re-Sanctifications of Equipment that is not tainted too much the characters discussed this topic for some time. They decided that they wouldn't use even untainted Relics because of the fear of loosing them and because they are not worthy. Because of the odds, they decided to bless some of the Plasma Weapons and one Thunderhammer they took from a fallen enemy but it took many hours to dtrip away blasphemous sigils and in some cases our Techmarine decided that the object in question was unsaveable.

In short: I think that using tainted weapons results in taint. Relictors even use possessed Weapons (and there are Relictors in the Sector), Reclaimers specialize in resanctification (which might work if the item isn't tainted too much) while other Chapters may not even think about such options. It depends on the Chapter, the direness of the situation and the personality of the marine in questoion.

It should always take time and the motivation should be to "save a forsaken relic" rather than "loot some stuff to use without paying requisition points". It should cost Corruption points or worse to use tainted relics or daemon swords - but some times this may be the only option to survive. A question of "honor vs. victory" perhaps - but makes interesting stories.

Jodelmarine said:

Before we started "official" play, I gave each of the players a brief roleplaying session just before they were to be inducted into the Deathwatch. With the Relictor player, I had the Chapter Master himself give him a secret mission; to ferry back any Chaos artifacts/relics to the Chapter via operatives within the Jericho Reach.
When he and I sat down to design the Relictors, we used Dark Angel geneseed as the basis for the Chapter. While they do not have many dealings with the parent company (if they're even aware of their shared ancestry), one thing they do have in common is their high level of secretiveness and suspicion of those outside the Chapter. Instead of dealing with the Fallen however, they traffick in the knowledge and use of Chaos artifacts/relics, but keep this tightly under wraps.
I think the tension that will provide will make for a nice story and I also like the idea you suggested for using Corruption Points to fuel the items.

A space marine using corrupt equipment? It's far from unheard of as with the example of the Relicators. I belive the codex astartes would ruel against the use of such weapons, so chapters such as the ultramarines would consider the use of such weapons as heracy. However not all chapters follow the codex so tightly. As for inquisitors, some have been known to use demon weapons against their opponents and not just weapons but daemon hosts aswell. These guys are inquisitors for cryin out loud! So you can't argue the effectivness of such weapons, however as far as I'm aware it's only a matter of time before even a Primarch (Fulgrim of the emporers children) become corrupted by such weapons. So I can't see Death watch marines using Corrupt weapons as anything short of a last resort, and i can't see a purist Inquisitor allowing the weapon to be kept past an emergency cituation. Best to dispose of the vile thing rather than let the possibility of corruption linger. A less strict Inquisitor however would likely seek to take the weapon for himself and would later be likly to become a threat to the kill team later on... As for simple things such as a corrupt normal bolt gun or heavy bolter, I don't see why even a Relicator would want to keep it around for long... Normal weapons, even master crafted ones, would basicly be disgusting things to be discarded and not trusted. Such weapons machine spirits would likely casue misfires, jams and the like, better to be rid of it.