AluminiumWolf said:

Captains in my campaign are not infirm, disabled pencil pushers but instead like the captains you find in the tabletop game and novels who are capable of leading from the front lines when called for (but conditions and duties rarely allow). They are veterans of countless battles with likely centuries of combat experience who chose to recommit to Deathwatch in a leadership role... they don't just rubberstamp anything the PC's do like some mindless grimdark Space Marine Union rep lawyer. In the mission debrief, they talk with the kill team (especially the squad leader for the mission) about any primary/secondary objectives that weren't met. The success and failures of the kill team reflect on them and their leadership (since they deemed the assets sent on the mission to be sufficient). If the kill team is a bunch of loose cannons running around the sector whoring it up with women and flipping off the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors, they will be punished accordingly (via renown and possibly being sent back to their chapter in disgrace). If the captain (through me as GM) hears the PCs' story and deems a suitable effort made towards accomplishing the objectives with respect to the battlefield conditions present (enemy size, kill team wounds, etc), no problems are caused. If the kill team is just willy nilly ignoring valid and sensible "orders" from an inquisitor assigned to the mission and causing tension between the Ordo and Deathwatch, there is a problem that he needs to address. If those orders were not sensible or even corrupted, he'll take that into account. In the mission given, the orders on site by the inquisitor were sensible (but also very inconvienent). The kill team made a effort commensurate with their damage level (two were on the crit table at the completion of the primary objective) which he deemed sufficient. If the players had simply ignored the inquisitor completely, they would have earned his emnity and gotten a stern talking to by the captain (with repeated needless future disrespect punished accordingly). If they had succeeded, they would have instead gotten an IOU from that inquisitor instead, cashed in for some added benefit on a future mission. If they just meet random unknown inquisitor in the field who presents a rosette and starts giving orders, they have more latitude with respect to the priority of obeying them than those coming from an =I= assigned for the mission from the watch station through the normal chain of command.

Well like I say, if Deathwatch Captains are cooler than Deathwatch PCs, why are we not playing Deathwatch Captains?

If you would rather hear about the stories of the NPCs than the PCs, something has gone terribly wrong.

Explain to me why deathwatch PCs are more interesting that Watch Captains. From there we can work on how to prevent the NPCs from stealing the spotlight from the PCs.

AluminiumWolf said:

You're apparently of the opinion that coolness is solely based on power... if you simply want to play the ultimate power in the galaxy, you shouldn't be playing Deathwatch as there are tons of people more powerful (and cooler by your apparent definition) than members of kill teams. You should instead be role playing the Emperor prior to the heresy or a 5th chaos god since you view people inside a chain of command as uncool simply because someone has the authority to give them orders. Deathwatch PCs are cool in my book (and campaign) despite being part of a chain of command and having both internal (their own honor code, chapter attitude, etc) and external restrictions (battlefield conditions, mission parameters, etc) on their actions. I'm not sure how having a Deathwatch Captain review their mission makes his story "cooler"...

The Watch Captain sounds like he has his **** far more together than any PC is likely to.

And he kicks more ass!

Seriously, I bet the players think he is way cooler than their PC.

Perhaps you should ask them.

AluminiumWolf said:

Of course he has his **** more together than the players... he's got at least a century of combat experience more than them and has advanced to a higher rank than them in both Astartes and Deathwatch hierarchy. If he didn't have his **** more together than them, THEY would be assigning missions to HIM! As for cooler, it's hard to be cooler when you are just a name with no stats who has yet to get involved in any combat with the party.

I'm not sure why you're in the Deathwatch forums as everything I've seen you post in the last few days feels more like a Chaos Marine in Black Crusade. Since you want to play a horny Marine who answers to no one and is more powerful than anyone around him, you really should be playing that game. If you want to play an Astartes who is a part of a team in a hierarchial Imperial Institution with all the responsibilities and restrictions that entails (which you don't), Deathwatch is a better match. I and my players (as well as co-GM because we alternate) are all of the latter persuasion.

I said it before, this is how I Watch Captain Servais:

It works very well. The Ravenguard is a **** cool veteran but due to his quiet and observing nature he rarely interferes. But when he does, his word is law. And he's very reliable.

Alex

Sanguinary Priest said:

Not necesscerily. Like I say, he could have once been a mighty warrior, but is now left fighting a desk by an encounter with a demon prince or the ravages of time. He could be a fine field Marine but a terrible leader, promoted a few ranks to far. He could be a glory hound, more interested in undertaking his own operations than overseeing his Kill Teams. He could be a political appointment, promoted more for having the correct views on important subjects than any talent.

Make him not perfect. No PC is, especially since they are hostage to the whims of chance and the perils of improvisation and It Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time.

I'm just saying - have you considered NOT making NPCs who are cooler than the PCs? As a GM the temptation to make a veteran of a thousand battles who knows everything and never makes mistakes is always there. But have you considered the impact that including such characters has on the game? As a player, you can pretty much tell when the GM is more interested in his NPCs than in the PCs. And it isn't a good feeling.

AluminiumWolf said:

Considering that you're the only one who thinks statless NPC captains who are nothing but a name and a way to roleplaying through requisition and renown/xp mechanics are "cooler" than the player characters who actually carry out the mission (the other more important 95% of the mission and roleplaying experience), I'm not really worried. It has NEVER come up but I'll specifically ask them just for you this weekend when I see them. I've been a player in a campaign where GM characters and the GM's girlfriend (and later wife) ruled while other PCs sucked and it's not even remotely similar to what you're claiming regarding Deathwatch Captains. If I made up stats for the Captain and had him accompany the kill team each mission, that would be a different story. Participating in the planning and resolution/cleanup stages of a mission doesn't make you more bad ass than the people actually accomplishing the mission.

Ok I am really not trying to be insulting, but Aluminiumwulf how old are you? Your viewpoint sounds, unseasoned is the word i'm going to go with. In the spirit of fairness I will volunteer that I am an even thirty and ex-military, so that colors my perceptions on rank and structure in a number of cases.

You can still be awesome players in the drama and yet still have people more powerful, competent, and experienced over you. In fact that's the way you want it. You want Watch Captain Thunderbeard to be better then you because that means he will make the correct decisions in regard to you, That's not to say that all of your superiors, inquisitors and death watch alike won't have their faults, failings or just bad judgement call but 40k as a setting does promote largely on meritocracy and experience in the Deatchwatch and Inquisition and the extreme age that those positions can reach means the grizzled veterans have "A lot" of experience under their belts.

As far as a comment on the watch captain having ihs **** together more then a kill team, I should certainly hope so, while the Kill team is thinking tactically the Watch Captain has the opportunity to think strategicly, he has all sorts of intel resources he can call upon and generally has multiple kill teams feeding him information and intel, what might be an isolate occurance to a kill team is becoming a larger pattern to the watch captain.

I guess it's a game style choice, though i won't go as harsh as sanguinary, if you prefer a game world where no one could ever be as cool or better then your PC's that's cool I guess, it's like running around in a video game with god mode on but some people do enjoy that and need that particular brand of stress relief and escapism. For my part I don't think it's necesssary.

>>>>>40k as a setting does promote largely on meritocracy and experience<<<<<

I'd have said that in the grim darkness of the far future the Imperium is the most corrupt and repressive regime imaginable.

>>>>>it's like running around in a video game with god mode on<<<<<

Thing is, I'd have said that it is like playing a video game normally. It isn't usual for a video game characters support crew to be cooler than they are. The guy on the radio will generally not be a better warrior than the character the player is driving. You get nubile techies or noble silver foxes feeding you intel, but the actual leg breaking falls to the player. Last best hope and all that.

You just... don't get random characters turning up, showing how much more awesome they are than the player, then wondering off. If someone is built up it is only so they can be defeated down the line to demonstrate how awesome the PC is.

The supporting cast can be cool, just not in the same way the PCs are. You can have someone doing Age and Experience if the PCs are doing Youth and Speed (but generally Roy Fokker will be killed half way through the show to get them out of the way of the hero). But someone who does what the hero does only better?

Cortana. The brains behind Master Chiefs brawn. Is an AI, so relys on the Spartan to get things done in meatspace.

Mei Ling, Otacon and Colonel Campbell. Not as awesome as the legendary Solid Snake. Otacon notably pisses himself the first time we see him.

Colonel Irving Lambert, the voice in Sam Fishers ear. Not as much of a black ops ninja as Fisher.

Alice Murray, the voice in Salem and Rios' ears.

Alastair and Zip, Lara Crofts support team. Neither is anything like the athlete Lara is.

Elena Ivanova from Vanquish. Is not wearing a super suit.

I think these pictures conclusively prove that the PCs should be getting their mission briefings from a hawt babe.

:-)

Wow, how did this thread grow to 180+ responses? If I start at this end, I don't even completely know how it's related to DW vs. OX Inquisitors. Is it still? As for me, I'm going to hop back on that topic; maybe if I'm completely wrong, we can push it up over 200 with the commentary .

So, the Deathwatch + the Inquisitor. It is my understanding that the Deathwatch is the Chambers Militant of the Ordo Xenos, and, as such, it "belongs" to that organization. On the whole, that means that the Space Marines in it are under the control of the Ordo Xenos, and as such, must do as they are told, unless the order is retarded. For a term, the Space Marine gives up the "I answer only to my Chapter, my Primarch, and the Him on Terra", and allow themselves to be bossed around by Them the Emperor Gave the Keys To. When the term is up, they depart, return back to their Chapter, and another Veteran Marine takes their place, waiting for the next incursion. In that case, since the Space Marine is willingly offered up to the Inquisition, he must obey the Inquisitors, even if they are so much lesser than he is. If he doesn't wish to, he can say no, and dishonor his Chapter (depending on circumstances), and return home, to be replaced, but I see Space Marines as being well indoctrinated enough to follow orders that don't scream stupid. It is the Ordo Xenos that keeps the group together, connected, and functional; the Space Marines (many of whom don't completely like each other, didn't sit down one day, and say "hey, let's form this Deathweatch thing"; the Inquisition did that. In much the same way most Grey Knights aren't too likely to question their Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, if an OX Inq gives a Kill Team instructions, they are expected to follow orders. I doubt too many Inquisitors are fool enough to waste such a resource, and those who can't work well with the Kill-Team, such as when they give tactical advice, or suggest addendums to the Inquisitor's plan, probably don't work with the Deathwatch much.

As for NPCs overshadowing the players, it happens all the time. Have you ever played Forgotten Realms D&D? Before 4th ed came along and ruined it, like everything else it touched (IMO), there were numerous mighty, epic-powered NPCs, and everytime your group sat down, and the GM said "all right, the world is in imminent danger of ending, and you're the only ones who can stop it", and none of you have some special power, or better than +2 weapons, you look them in the face and say "what, where's Elminster at? Why can't the Seven Sisters save the world? Is Driz'zt too busy evading Artemis Entrari to come stop this calamity of the week?" Well, they are always unavoidably busy, keeping the Szass Tams, Halistar Blackcloaks, and Manshoons of their world at bay, who would each take their chance at things if the epic hero allowed themselves to be distracted by something mid-level PCs can stop, even with bad dice (though it could end the world ).

As for your Watch Cpatain, he probably is cooler, and Boss is probably cooler than Snake (I don't play Metal Gear, so I really don't know). He isn't likely to be a desk jockey because of age; Space Marines are a cross between Saiyans and dragons, so they don't really seem to age, and hurt for it; they fight till they die, and they die fighting. If an encounter left him broken, bionics could fix him, even if it meant his power armor became a support frame, or internment in a Dreadnought frame if he was really splutched. He's the Watch Captain because his tactical acumen has elevated him above the risk of missions, where his loss would do too much to damage the organization. Ever heard of a Proteus-class command bunker? It's an underground, heavily reinforced structure specifically buit to contain highrst-ranking Guard officers and Planetary Governors, in the event of an attack. They are there because their combat brilliance demands that they play Eisenhower, and not expose themselves to enemy fire, but lead from safety, where they can monitor mutiple fronts, and strategize according to how each is shaping up. The PCs are grunts, or even more like Patton, on the field, risking all, bacause they are a bit more expendable, and because they have what it takes to get it done. He may be cooler than any one PC, but remember, you guys get to go out, and actually DO stuff, while he sits at base, remembering the good old days, when he did what you do, and earned his place of high regard. Being captain of a starship is awesome, but Admirals tell Captains what to do. Do you want to be an Admiral? They sit at base, filling out forms, and remembering when they used to be gallant explorers. The only time they'll command now is if a full-scale threat threatens the place, and then they will likely di along with the rest of you. Star Trek Kirk's happiest moment was getting demoted back to Captain. You get to DO stuff; it might not be what you want to do, but that's what Rogue Trader is for. Tell your players they aren't the coolest; that's the point. They get to have fun BECOMING the coolest.

I think you've conclusively proved my point, I'm not going to say your playing your game wrong but I think your playing a team/organization based game and looking to be the singular determinator. Snake doesn't do that, he spends his games skulking around in the shadows and quickly looses one on one fights with even basic bad guys in many of them. (The last metalgear I played was on the NES so my knowledge is limited).

Basically you want the universe to bend over and tell you how cool you are, any possible threat or deviation from that is unacceptable, If your gorup makes it cool I guess that's cool, but for most characters, RPG/Video Game you name it, they do Cool things by DOING COOL THINGS, not having the universe set them up for it. A victory with no stress is a victory with no savor and all that.

>>>>>Wow, how did this thread grow to 180+ responses?<<<<<

Wasn't easy.

:-)

>>>>>So, the Deathwatch + the Inquisitor. It is my understanding that the Deathwatch is the Chambers Militant of the Ordo Xenos, and, as such, it "belongs" to that organization.<<<<<

No. Again, they have retconned it so the Deathwatch is not subordinate to the Inquisition. For This Very Reason.

>>>>>Do you want to be an Admiral? They sit at base, filling out forms, and remembering when they used to be gallant explorers. The only time they'll command now is if a full-scale threat threatens the place, and then they will likely di along with the rest of you. Star Trek Kirk's happiest moment was getting demoted back to Captain. You get to DO stuff<<<<<

Yeah. I'm just suggesting using many of tricks available to imply that being a Space Marine of the Deathwatch is the coolest job in the universe. Other people may have more power, wealth, chicks, whatever, but they are not Space Marines, and certainly not fighting Blades of a Kill Team of the Deathwatch, so it sucks to be them.

I dunno. I think this is difficult. I've played enough games where it is pretty clear that the PCs do not have the coolest job in the universe to think people need to work on it.

(While remembering that ANY job can be the coolest job in the universe if you sell it correctly. Some jobs are SO TERRIBLE that in the right light they are the COOLEST EVAR!)

venkelos said:

Please read page 305 of the Deathwatch Core Rulebook. Here is a quote:

"In this mission, the Ordo Xenos and the Deathwatch are equals, the Inquisitors rooting out the foes for the Deathwatch to eradicate. While neither party is subject to the command of the other, both work in concert towards their common goal, according to those oaths made centuries ago. The two work closely together, ever watchful for that fateful day when the prophecies of the conclave are realised."

Also page 329

"Despite the power of the Inquisition and the ancient and honoured role of the Inquisitor of the Chamber, the sole and final authority of the Watch Fortress, and thereby all the Deathwatch Marines in the Jericho Reach is the Master of Vigilance, a position held by the most senior Deathwatch Captain in the Jericho Reach. Others that have thought to act otherwise, including certain members of the Inquisition, have paid for this mistake with their lives."

This doesn't give the Marines the right to give the finger to the Inquisition, but it also doesn't give the Inquisition the right to boss around Marines. Again, the Kill Team will respond to the Mission Authority, which may or may not be an Inquisitor as determined by the Kill Team's Captain (or Commander, etc.). In the published adventures, the Inquisition is seen _asking_ for the help of the DW, not demanding it. That being said, most Inquisitors are smart, and if they're to the point they need the DW's help, it's more than likely a legit request.

venkelos said:

No, please see above and check out page 305, the Inquisition went asking, and the Chapter Masters agreed, and formed an organization allied with the Inquisition.

venkelos said:

As above, only if that Inquisitor is the mission authority, or if the order in question maks more sense than the one they were already following. Don't get me wrong, things change in the field and the DW marines are expected to act smartly. If an Inqiusitor shows up with more info and the Marines give him the finger and move on, if the order was smart or a real priority, you can bet (at least in my game) the Watch Captain is going to be pretty curious as to why the KT decided to be dicks.

AluminiumWolf said:

This is a true statement, but I think that comes down to the individual GM and group of players. I think it's worth calling out, but you have to admit a lot of your tone (and prior posts!) imply that you want your marines to be near invulnerable, and the best thing since sliced bread. I agree that PCs should rule the day, but I don't think you have to establish that via authority.

Thank you Charmander for mentioning page 305!!! So, are we done now?

+++++That being said, most Inquisitors are smart, and if they're to the point they need the DW's help, it's more than likely a legit request.+++++

If your Marines get in to the habit of doing whatever an Inquisitor tells them, you need to have a moment where two Inquisitors each accuse the other of Heresy and order the Marines to kill them.

Or keep assigning ever more apparently heretical tasks. Possibly right up to the point where the Inquisitor ascends to Demon Princehood (or perhaps beyond, stopping only when the crusade tears the corpse of the False Emperor from its Golden Throne).

Or maybe not. Inquisitors often use unorthodox methods for the greater good. There will not be a moment when the Inquisitor goes from Friend flagged as Ally (No Attack) to Enemy flagged Attackable. Maybe this will be the guy to finally tame Chaos and bring new hope to humanity.

Marines must learn to think for themselves, or they will be nothing more than pawns in the internal politics of the Inqusition. As ever, I Vas Just Vollowink Ordas will not save you - I remember fondly reading a Mechwarrior/Battletech scenario whose goal was, with a series of small steps, to make the PCs complicit in running a concentration/extermination camp.

Every game should feature a moment where an Inquisitor says 'Do you trust me?' and the Players answer 'I DON'T KNOW!'.

+++++This is a true statement, but I think that comes down to the individual GM and group of players. I think it's worth calling out, but you have to admit a lot of your tone (and prior posts!) imply that you want your marines to be near invulnerable, and the best thing since sliced bread. I agree that PCs should rule the day, but I don't think you have to establish that via authority.+++++

As ever, I would find it endlessly entertaining if Marines could say things like

"You made three mistakes. First, you took the job. Second, you came light – a reinforced panzer division for us? ******' insulting. But the worst mistake you made, merc … that's right. Empty gun rack."

This doesn't mean you can't beat Space Marines, but it does mean that to beat a Marine you have to roll Heavy, and everyone knows it.

But beyond that, I just want Marines to be cool. As cool as possible. As cool as Commander Shepard, or John-117/The Demon or The Oncoming Storm. Feared by their foes, respected by their allies - They Matter.

And this is a roleplaying game. The universe is probably going to have to try to politely not notice that the Assault Marine known to the Tau as Ver'saith (lit. 'The Butcher') and whose musk is known to produce a panic response in Tyranid swarm organisms once blew off his own arm with a critical fumble on a grenade roll.

AluminiumWolf said:

I...I think you are playing the wrong game. There are two other, more fitting RPGs in this product line if you want to be Renegade Commander Shepard.

AluminiumWolf said:

I saw my players today for an apocalypse game and asked them if they felt overshadowed, threatened, or simply less cool than their statless quest-giver noncombatant but otherwise fully functional captain as you suggested... and the resulting answer was a unanimous no. One interesting point/comment that was brought up by a player was that if you feel threatened by this type of captain and think your character is less "cool" than him, the problem isn't with the captain but that you've apparently made the most boring Deathwatch space marine EVER!! (his emphasis) Another point made was that, unless you're starting at a high rank/renown or are set in a tiny deathwatch outpost, your rank 1/initiate kill team will always have people around them more powerful and therefore "cooler" (your definition, not mine) since other higher ranking kill teams will be present (in addition to the captain). Is your kill team the only one in the sector in your campaign so as not to have others around who are better than them? If not, did you put an artificial cap on NPC kill teams or start yourself at max rank/renown so they don't steal your mojo? Do they ever interact with other non-deathwatch astartes? If so, do you dumb them down so as not to bruise the deathwatch members' egos?

Coolness is not dictated only by the level of power you wield but also by HOW you wield it.

I am just happy to plant the seeds of doubt. Soon they will asking 'why are our characters surrounded be people who are better at their jobs than they are? It doesn't work like that in other media, except maybe World of Warcraft. Are we supposed to be the heros of this story or not?'

¡Viva la Revolución!

:0)

All i can say is i'm glad I don't have to GM for you, it must be really really annoying to have a player that threatens to quit if the universe doesn't falll over to worship him as the second coming of the emperor. What do you do if everyone on the kill team wants to be number one billy badass, must suck to play an Apothecary or other less isntantly super powerfull combatant in your game with all the **** swinging going on.

What i'm saying that I likely could have put better, is you keep wanting to play single player mode in a team and organization based universe. You want to be the one man action hero when you are quite literally in the army now. You want to play Lethal Weapon when the game is quite a bit closer to Blackhawk Down.

I think roleplaying games are closer to the single player experience than WoW. There are four-ish main characters, rather than thousands, and they usually get equal spotlight time and are working as a team.

Lethal Weapon is a double act, with Riggs and Murtough being the PCs.

I guess 4 player co-op campaign or the Buddy Movie dynamic are the real model. So it isn't quite You Are The Chosen One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force, but at the same time it is a long way being a newbie in PvP.

As ever, NPCs haven't rearranged their schedule to turn up to the game. So there is no need to be fair to them.

And I'm drawing more from Greek or Arthurian Myth than Americas Army.

My Marines are Warriors more than they are Soldiers. Closer to Achilles or Lancelot or Thor than Private Ryan.

Saluting is definately optional, as is shouting SIR YES SIR a lot.

y'all know yer arguin' bout which way is best to play this game.....right?

and, just so's y'all know, yer all wrong, cause MY way of playing wh40k is totally absolutely unquestionably correct 100% of the time, so there!!

Now, screw you guys, i'm goin' home!