+++++Think of the Deathwatch as the inquisition's younger brother+++++

Well no, they have very carefully made the Deathwatch equal status with the Inquisiton.

Remember - in a Space Marine game the coolest people in the room are the Space Marines. If you want to run a game about how cool Inquisitors are, have the players playing Inquisitors!

AluminiumWolf said:

+1 to this. The book very much lays out that the Deathwatch and the Inquisition are partners. In the description of how the Deathwatch was formed, towards the back of the core book, the Inquisition basically begged Astartes Chapter Masters to help them and were kind of surprised when they actually did. I'm fairly certain this bit of fiction (retcon if you want) was put in to make the PCs, as Wolf says, the most important people at the table.

I think the Inquisitors in the Space Marine video game are a bit of an example.

The first time we hear about Drogan he is calling for help via a servo skull. When we meet him in person he is angry and frustrated - he clearly doesn't have his **** together like the PC does.

Drogan asks, more or less politely, for help, and the PC doesn't have anything better to do so he agrees. But on the mission several times the PC overrules the Inquisitors wishes.

It then turns out that the PC should have put a bolt through the Inqusitors skull the first time he saw him.

At the end of the game the PC gets taken away by another Inquisitor, but it is made clear that the PC goes along more or less willingly - the supporting characters comment that if he wants to defy the Inquisition they will back his play. This is some combination of noble sacrifice/showing his honor, rather than him being slapped.

Actually I figure I would run a game set in Warhammer40k, in Warhammer40k there are inquisitors who theoretically have authority over everyone but the emperor. Even the high lords of terra, the guys who can will and do tell the space marines how to conduct their business, when they can found new chapters, where they will be based at, etc etc Are theoretcaly beholden to the inquisition. Can't deal with that, fine your GM's call but it's not really WH40k and not really deathwatch if your playing "I am a space marine, I am beholden to none." and everyone else, You may of course play AluminiumWolf's super special space marine game, but it doesn't do the setting justice. The Death Watch is the the chamber militant of the Ordo Xenos, they derive their very authority from the Ordo Xenos, they are the lesser partner, a respected portion, but the junior partner none the less.

Further there are companies in this world that are of like size, take Qwes...err Century Link and ATT for example, two companies in roughly the same ballpark (although ATT is a lot bigger when you could all it's diversified holdings). Does that mean that Joe the Cable Guy is on the same level of the CEO or a member of the board of ATT no? Individual Deathwatch troopers are not an inquisitors equal, their lackey's to someone who is close (watch captains, master of the vigil) but int he imperial pecking order they fall below.

You can selectively read or observe anything you want to support your point, it doesn't make it the reality.

Larry the cable guy can still be the coolest person in the room. If the story is focusing on how cool it is to be a hard working, generous kind hearted cable guy who loves his wife and kids, and not on the horrible CEO who can only get an erection when he is strangling puppies...

By setting up situations where the cable guy looks cool and the CEO looks like a loser (say, where the cable guy walks in to a pub where everyone knows his name, and the CEO goes to an empty hotel room and cries himself to sleep because his company is really an elaborate pyramid scheme and the feds are closing in) you control who is cooler.

And read the book. They have retconned the Deathwatch to be an equal partner to the Inqusition for just this reason.

Just - don't step on the PCs thing.

If the game is about how awesome cable guys are, don't be constantly bringing in CEOs with stunningly beautiful wives and a string of mistresses and a Ferrari and a fulfilling job and everything. Go out of your way to emphasise the ways it is cooler to be a cable guy. Make it clear that your CEOs would be much happier if they were cable guys.

A Marines thing is likely to be being the biggest badass in the sector. So play to that. Any Inquisitors they meet seek them out BECAUSE they are the biggest badass in the sector. And make it clear that the Inquisitor knows he is dealing with the biggest badass in the sector. How do you pet a tiger? Carefully. You can be as offended as you like that the tiger isn't showing you enough respect and it will still eat you. Of course, it will probably be a stingray that gets you in the end.

Wait. Where was I?

AluminiumWolf said:

Of course in the case of Marines if they meet an Inquisitor with lots of thrones and hot women, he'll be met with blank stares. Theirs is a galaxy of eternal warfare and only eternal warfare (except SW getting drunk perhaps).

Inquisitors only have the Emperor above them by convenient agreement. Astartes are the Emperor's (proud) sons by blood. That is the difference.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yeah. A Space Marines thing is likely to be dispensing of personal violence. The Inquisitor may have unlimited authority, an enormous ***** and really good hair, but for the purposes of this story Marines are cooler because they are better at beating things up.

So a Marine game must emphasise the importance and coolness of Martial Prowess. For all an Inquisitors power he has to come cap in hand to the Marines and ask for their assistance because he can't wade through a horde of Orks like they can. He is Weak, and they are Strong.

If an inquisitor turns up with beautiful death cult assassins on each arm AND promptly bests the PCs in an arm wrestling contest you have a problem. If an Inquisitor says 'Jump' and a Marine says 'Make Me' and the =I= does, you have a problem.

lurkeroutthere said:

Take a look towards the back of the Deathwatch core rulebook as was mentioned earlier. As Wolf says (and I did), the authors changed the setting and retconned the DW into a partner agency with the Inquisition, not beholden to it. This is not selective reading or observation here, this is reading the core rulebook for the game in question.

Well as I said we cna agree to disagree here, but I think it's a poor soul who needs to be the best in the universe in their game world in order to have fun. That speaks of validation issues that I won't touch.

The fact is marines do have a ton of inherant advantages but I can build a ascended or even non ascended Sister of Battle who will eat ones lunch, so to presume there are no mere mortals out there who can match them in 1 on 1 combat is silly. Off the top of my head Gaunt (who is hardly typical but starts to approach where I think an inquisitor could be) has taken chaos space marines and won or lived to tell the tale.

Now I realize you've got your way, and I'm not your GM so it doesn't matter too much, but your "I must be the baddest thing I run into or my fun is ruined" just makes me think of this comic. www.goblinscomic.com/10012005/

Again the point of having an inquisitor, planetary governor, or other person who doesn't bow and scrape before the space marine or who is of similar or even greater competence level isn't to "ruin the players fun" it is to keep the feel that there is an entire universe out there and they are one important part of it, but not the end all be all. You can do important parts without being the king **** everything, likewise you can have people superior to you in command and/or power without them just humbling you at every turn.

Charmander said:

The Deathwatch is an equal partner with the Inquisition, yes... but that doesn't mean that every individual Deathwatch Marine is the equal in status and authority to an Inquisitor; afterall, even Deathwatch Marines have superior officers, while Inquisitors technically don't (Inquisitor Lords are a matter of informal status, and are more of a "first amongst equals" than an actual higher rank).

But this is the game about Space Marines, so we are talking about how Marines are cooler than Inquisitors. Right?

It is of course your right to think Inquisitors are cooler than Space Marines, but it does rather ask the question why we are not playing Inquisitors.

lurkeroutthere said:

I can see where you might imply that from Wolf's or my answers, but in nearly every good game I've played in the focus of the story and the game has been on the PCs. The PCs are 'special' for some reason or another. Yes, there is ALWAYS a bigger fish, but the players should be the ones important to the function of the story. I think at it's heart that is what Wolf and I are saying here. When playing Space Marines, you're supposed to be playing the heroes from epics.

lurkeroutthere said:

I don't particularly want to engage in a stat building war over a discussion of Inquisitorial rank and politics, I dont think that's truly valid to the argument at hand.

lurkeroutthere said:

I'll bring up two things here- first, you could probably explain in game stats how Gaunt survived his CSM encounter. It had to do a bit with luck (fate), his weapon (a power sword which is at least master crafted), and the fact that he had a horde of friends helping him with poision darts. Second, stat's aside here (and thus more important) the key point is that he encountered the CSM and lived to tell about it because that was what was important to the story.

lurkeroutthere said:

I don't disagree- the NPCs don't have to bow down and worship the players here. The point we're trying to make is the game needs to be about the PCs, and in this game the PCs are supposed to be the heroes from epics (the Trojan War is mentioned as inspiration). It takes quite a bit away from epicness and reinforces the 'cog in a wheel' theme if you get bossed around by 'superiors' all the time. That's not to say that senior commanders or inquisitors can't be jerks or can't make asks or demands of the players. In fact, given the political situation in the Reach, the DW players are in a pretty powerful seat. They could have real lasting consequences simply by placating or not playing nice with the high ranking folks in the region.

@No-1: I'm not trying to say an individual Marine (or PC) would have equal authority as compared to an Inquisitor, I'm trying to say that the Inquisitor shouting orders at a Kill Team isn't going to compel the Kill Team into action unless the KT's commanders have put that guy in charge of the mission. The KT is going to defer to the orders they received from their superior officer. Now, the KT may see value or the importance of what the Inquisitor is saying, and could adapt to the conditions on the ground, but they'd not be forced to obey. Does that make sense? The way I see it that's one of the reasons Inquisitors are frequently depicted as requesting aid from the Deathwatch, and presenting a good argument, rather than commanding them like they would an Acolyte.

Charmander said:

The thing is, though, the alliance goes both ways, which has often been overlooked in this discussion - while an Inquisitor does have to deal respectfully with the Deathwatch, so do they have to deal respectfully with the Inquisition... because they're allies.

An Inquisitor is a skilled and experienced servant of the Imperium, an expert in his field with theoretically infinite authority and resources and the will to use those things to accomplish the goal of protecting the Imperium, with status earned through long decades of service to the Imperium in lesser capacities. He's deserving of respect, and while he shouldn't be able to get away with throwing his weight around where the Deathwatch are involved, neither should the Astartes be dismissive of him just because he's only an exceptional human being and they're post-human supersoldiers.

Every Deathwatch Marine has taken the Apocryphon Oath at the beginning of their Vigil, and has voluntarily entered into the alliance between the Adeptus Astartes and the Inquisition that resulted into the Deathwatch. His duty, for the duration of his Vigil, is to uphold and work towards the goals and objectives of that alliance, which means that treating his allies - both fellow Marines of Chapters whose natures may be contradictory to his beliefs, and Inquisitors - with the respect and dignity they have earned. A Space Marine serving in the Deathwatch is oath-bound to at least listen to what the Inquisitor has to say and deal with him diplomatically, just as the Inquisitor is required by circumstances to treat the Deathwatch with respect.

In essence, if you're going to play the "they're allied to the Inquisition, not subservient to it" card, at least remember that an alliance is not a one-way street.

We can agree that if the Inquisitor of the Chamber orders an Astartes, they will obey unless the order is obviously heretical in nature. She is a permanent member of the Chamber of Vigilance and she is the watcher of the watchers as the rulebook puts it. She observes the Astartes for taint and/or corruption.

Since Quist is her right-hand woman, it can be assumed that her authority would go by unquestioned among pretty much all of the Astartes. Less prominent Inquisitors? Well, it depends on the personalities involved and what is at stake.

My argument is more: all Astartes follow everything an Inquisitor says blindly is boring. You don't want that, especially for the PCs. Cut the PCs some slack here. If the NPC Astartes are mindless killing machines, okay. Doesn't work well for PCs. Players will naturally insist on their own authority and they have a lineage of blood and bloodshed to point towards.

Alex

I think it is a good idea to always give your NPCs flaws that will allow the PCs virtues to shine.

Make the inquisitor frightened or angry or frustrated, allowing the clear head and Know No Fear of the PCs to save the day. Make the Inquisitor so mired in politics that they need the straight talking, swift fisted Marines to show them the path.

Let the Marines overrule the Inquisitor with their superior tactical knowledge and always, always have a scene where the Marines superior martial skills directly save the NPC from a fate worse than death.

An NPCs role, especially in a Space Marine game, is to make the PCs look good.

ak-73 said:

No, I don't. But I wasn't arguing that I did, so I don't see the relevance.

I was arguing that while an Inquisitor can't expect to simply order a Deathwatch Kill-Team around, nor can they expect to throw their weight around either. Everything that applies to Inquisitors throwing their weight around also applies to members of the Deathwatch, because they're presented as equals. You can't claim "but the background says they're equals" and then decide that actually, while Inquisitors have to ask nicely, the Deathwatch can run around acting self-important and petty just because they're Space Marines... because that isn't the interaction of equals. That's a decidedly unequal relationship.

Well like I say this is the Space Marine game, so the Space Marines get to be the coolest.

Surely everyone agrees that when push comes to shove between PC and NPC it is the PCs who will come out on top.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Because that way we have established a lower limit for the degree to which PCs may defy. Which is a step forward because it'll help as approach a suitable answer.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Since we were talking about PCs, what is the relevance of what you say here?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well, if we talk FFG/40K canon, sure. However we're still dealing with a Deathwatch RPGs with the player's being Astartes. If you play simulationist, that's no factor but otherwise if frequently is.

Beyond that my personal interpretation deviates from "canon" occasionally.

Alex

AluminiumWolf said:

Being the "coolest" doesn't necessarily mean you are lord of all that you survey and everyone must follow your commands. I prefer to use the command levels presented in the rulebooks as a guideline in my campaign. The highest ranking inquisitor is about equal in rank to the master of the watch (with the marine having the final say so if push truely comes to shove regarding kill teams) and interactions there are currently waaay above the party's pay grade.. captains having equal rank with experienced inquisitors in the field (including PC's with the advanced specialty eventually), and squad leaders of kill teams equal to very junior inquisitors or experienced acolytes acting as the hand of higher ranking inquisitors on missions (like interrogators). Luckily, this doesn't come up very often as I don't generally have normal humans baby sit the Kill Team PC's. In the mission where they did accompany one, I did have the junior inquisitor issue an order that complicated the mission significantly. The kill team took the "order" under advisement and put forth a token effort to resolve it but ultimately didn't. I just made it an initially secret secondary mission objective that they failed and later had to explain their failure to their captain.

Sanguinary Priest said:

And did you have their Captain take the PCs side (something like 'well done for not endangering the primary objective to go chasing off on some pissant Inquisitors wild goose chase' perhaps), or was it naughty school kids in front of the principal time?

Who is coolest in this interaction:-

The watch captains main role should surely be to explain to the audience what loose cannons, mavericks and lone wolves the PCs are. It certainly isn't to give the impression that he could do their job better if he wasn't so busy with more important things.

MENDOOOOOOOOZAAAAA!

Alex

Watch Captain: Inquisitor Mendoza is one of the most respected citizens in this sector, McBane. And yet you ran his guncutter off a cliff, broke the necks of three of his bodyguards, and drove a thunderhawk through his front door?
Brother McBane: But, Captain, I have proof dat he is head of an interstellar heresy cartel!
Captain: I don't want to hear it, McBane! You're outta here!
McBane: [pushes the Captain out his office window, who falls into the fountain in the plaza] Dat makes two of us.

Except DW Watch Captains are no paper-pushers, they are more likely to lead any charge when push comes to shove (you have to sideline them in DW of course due to the action centering around the PCs - another example for necessary concessions, btw).

Alex

Yeah. I think it is generally going to be sensible to have the Captain be a non-combatant due to injury or age, and have him repeatedly comment (whenever he isn't chewing out the PCs for Not Playing By The Rules and Being Too Awesome) that he hates being stuck having to play politics with the useless Inquisitors and wishes he was back in the field with the Real Marines.

("Never let them promote you boys! What I wouldn't give to feel my hands around the throat of a Ork again!)