Brand said:

Aye, but negotiation between equals demands politeness and making it worth the other parties while.

Both have something the other wants. The Inquisitor wants the martial skills of the Marines - representing a concentration of force unavailable anywhere else. In return, she offers largely a chance for glorious combat against the foes of the Imperium, but she can sweeten the deal by offering, say, some tomes of secret lore for the Librarian or having the Inquisitions best armourer take a look at their weapons.

Cause seriously, if you just want Marines to stand around looking impressive you had better have something really good to offer them.

--

Largely, I feel that in a Space Marine game focusing on Space Marines the main thrust of the game should be on how the Inquisition needs the kill team to pull their asses out of the fire when things go wrong.

And that every game should offer the chance for a Marine to kick an Inquisitor in to a deep well while shouting THIS. IS. ULTRAMAR!!!!1!!

AluminiumWolf said:

I don't think I know you but you come across as someone who has serious unresolved personal issues with your GM. Okay, so you want him to roleplay your sniveling personal slave your ubermensh alter-ego can abuse all you want? Fine. Take it up to him or her and see if he or she is willing to run a game to satisfy your fantasies. Or get some five-star service from a professional. Whatever you do, don't come here begging for hand-holding 'cause you don't get 'empowered' enough in your life.

I just feel there needs to be more honesty about what people are going to want out of a Space Marine game.

Call of Cthulhu is special because it is not a game about power fantasy. You play an ordinary person put against implacable foes.

But this is not that game. This is not Fluffy Bunny Learns To Share. This is not Chloe The Overweight Receptionist Talks About Her Feelings. This is not just another game about playing an acolyte only this time you have terrible people skills.

This is Space Marine roleplaying. This is the most macho, the most empowering, the most power fantasy filled milleu there is.

Christ! Space Marines man! What else are they for? Deep examination of the human condition?

In closing, page one of the Deathwatch GMs instructions is not 'Your players will enjoy being reminded that their characters, even though they are mightly Space Marines, are still somebodies *****. You should go out of your way to ensure this comes up and that they feel sufficiently like a *****.'

I would suggest that in fact it is far closer to the opposite.

Power Corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

How many Renegade inquisitors exist in wh40k setting ? a lot.

How many Adeptus Astartes turned Renegade in wh40k setting? a lot.

Does it help with Astartes&inquisition cooperation? guess not. But tbh it all depend on too many variables to judge how two parties would behave.

I lead my games in themes of complete distrust, gigantic imperial inefficient bureaucracy, hatred, greed, medieval style intolerance. Remember that we talk about worlds where government titles and functions are passed from father to son, judgement of guilt is passed if u can held hot red iron for some time to prove innocence, ipod would be faith symbol, and progress is great sin against imperium.

AluminiumWolf said:

Yeah, dude, we KNOW. These "examples" lead nowhere, as I think everyone here has understood your point (if any needed to be reminded it anyway).

Plus you're being fairly unfair, because no one said "You have to go out of your way to make the Marines lick someone's boots". The thing is, people said "When the case happens, Marines shouldn't act like total pricks, but more like the superhuman paragons they are." Being the coolest guy is NOT having the biggest gun. It's having a big gun, being nigh unkillable BUT still acting for the others, instead of just listening to what YOU want.

Then again, YMMV and everything, but that means you have to accept our point of view, too. Especially when nearly everyone but you says you should maybe consider something a bit less "over macho no brains just muscle".

If you want muscle and no brains, you can. No one wants to forbid you that. BUT don't go around saying that anyone who considers another option is utterly wrong, because that's just absurd.

I personnaly say that Deathwatch is surely about kicking asses and chewing bubble-gum, but also about what happens when you lack one thereof, and what happens when the supernatural paragons of mankind interact with slightly more normal humans (as Inquisitors aren't Average Joe). What happens when the choice is not "Kill the vile Xeno or be killed by it", but "Go kill the vile Xeno, letting a whole city be burnt to ashes by vile Heretics, or fight the vile Heretics but let the vile Xenos in, or find a solution to both problems". That's where you'll have Marines talking with Inquisitors, and in no way should they kill an Inq who tries to do his job. Marines don't kill imperial people out of their ego. They kill them if they are heretic (which fortunately for you happens a lot). An Inq being an ass is not heretic. He may deserve a firm answer, but not a bolt. End of the line.

++++Marines don't kill imperial people out of their ego.++++

I don't know. These guys carry the blood of the Emperor in their veins. They are selected from the most violent men in the most violent cultures in the most violent civilisation imaginable. They are the greatest killers produced by the imperium of man, psychoindoctrinated to hone their hate to entirely new levels of hate. They are the God Emperors Angels of Death, and where they walk all of His enemies run in fear.

I feel that massively violent men with a rampant god complex are probably people you want to be careful around.

On top of this these particular Marines are PCs, who will often take it in to their heads to kill remarkably random people.

A wise man once said that PCs are not regular people. They are psychopaths with the tenacity of angry sharks. Any plot that requires the PCs to act like normal people instead of psychopaths with the tenacity of angry sharks is doomed to failure. So you have Space Marines, who are psychopaths with the tenacity of angry sharks, who are also PCs, who are psychopaths with the tenacity of angry sharks.

This is a dangerous combination to the people around them.

And I'm fine with that. Offing NPCs is fun, doubly so if they say 'Don't you know who I am?' before you kick their teeth in.

++++He may deserve a firm answer, but not a bolt. End of the line.++++

So what are you going to do when a PC draws down on him? Because, let us face it, this is not unusual behaviour, either for PCs or Space Marines.

In my experience, what happens when you try to kill an NPC the GM thinks is cooler than your PC you fail. Humiliatingly. Hell, I've done it myself! One time in a Babylon 5 game I called in a hastily invented orbital bombardment to save an NPC I liked from being ignominiously murdered in a bar during what was supposed to be a frendly chat*.

It would therefore, I submit, for a Space Marine game where you want the players to feel awesome, be prudent to avoid putting any NPCs you think are cooler than the PCs anywhere near the adventure ESPECIALLY if your intended use for them is to have them walk up to the party and start mouthing off.

If you can't stand the idea of an Inquisitor being dissed by the PCs and having to eat it, or indeed potentially being chucked in to a deep pit, I suggest you give at least some thought as to whether you want to include one in your adventure.

--

'Sir! Brother Soulshitter has executed another Inquisitor! That makes three this year!'

'Instruct his apothecary to increase his non-combat dosage of grox tranquiliser by 2000mg, and send a message to the conclave reminding them to watch what they say around the effectives.'

--

*This was not the best way to handle the situation, but I was young and GODAMMIT THEY WERE ONLY SUPPOSED TO TALK TO HIM!!!!!1!!1!

AW, I think the biggest problem here is that your party is not the typical group. I've been playing about 10 years or so, and I can honestly say I've never played with anyone like that. My players have made plenty of bad decisions, sure, but I wouldn't characterize any of them as "psychopaths with the tenacity of angry sharks."

Killing NPCs is great, sure. But not when said NPC is supposed to be one of your allies, especially when you belong to a group that is:

A. A subgroup of the NPC's organization

and

B. Supposedly made of those SMs that are able to get along with others (those not of their Chapter)

Kill corrupt/tainted Inquisitors all day. That's great. But a typical SM (especially DW SM) will need a better excuse to put a round into an Inquisitor than, "He was rude and I didn't like what he was saying."

So what are you going to do when a PC draws down on him? Because, let us face it, this is not unusual behaviour, either for PCs or Space Marines.

First, it would be unusual in my group. I can't speak for others. But, if someone did that (intentionally started violence against an Inquisitor who was uncorrupted/nonviolent) it would depend on the situation. If he was alone or otherwise clearly outmatched, the Inquisitor would do his best to escape. There would likely be witnesses. At absolute best, the SM would be stripped of any Renown and likely sent back to his Chapter in shame. At worst, he'd be declared a traitor and his Captain would cleanse the DW of his betrayal with the handiest weapon.

I don't run NPCs who are supposedly "cooler" than the PCs. That's a mistake that some GMs make, but that's their problem. I love Inquisitor Quist; she makes a great contact to use to get the team into a mission. If she somehow dies during the storyline, I won't be shedding any tears over her. There are lots of people in DW who outshine the PCs, be it in resources, power, or training. That just means they have their roles. Would your players feel bad because Mordigael is clearly a much more powerful character, and can "mouth off" if the team says/does something stupid?

By all means, if your group wants to play the kill-crazy, take-no-nonsense SMs who answer to no one...play it that way. Just don't be surprised when people say that style doesn't suit them and stick with something a bit less over the top.

I'm also starting to think someone hasn't quite read what the Deathwatch RPG book says. Especially to GMs.

p.267-8 detail three styles of play: Emperor's Finest, Inquisitorial Involvement and Envoys, Emissaries and Assassins. There is no Loose Cannon on the Deck -style listed. If you read the descriptions all the styles listed depend on there being someone who is assigning the missions to Kill Team. In two of the styles listed that 'someone' isn't even Space Marine but (horor of horrors!) a normal human being. OMG! Heresy! FFG has ruined the game by making Space Marines, as you put it, 'someones *****'.

p.268-9 talk about how the Kill Team setting allows thge PCs 'decent degree of authonomy' in rigid military structure of Adeptus Astartes. It also warns GMs about "not stealing the limelight", but its not saying a NPC can't be cool. It says you should not use deus ex machina tactics to bail the PCs out. Their successes and failures should be on their own account, not on the account of NPCs. FFG just ruined the game saying you are not supposed to bail out PCs who get into trouble because they act like a pack of fools on meth.

p.274-5 detail six mission archetypes. One of them is the very Bodyguard -mission type discussed in this thread. Inquisitor or diplomatic envoy is mentioned as possible VIPs you are protecting. The mission acrhetype parameters are actually written so that the the PCs are supposed to understand that they are assigned to this task for a very good reason. They are not written so that PCs are supposed to whine, ***** and throw tantrums demanding for Terminator Armours in exchange for standing in line and looking tough. What is this? A Touching Fable of Fluffy The Bunny Helping a Little Girl in Searching Her Innermost Feelings?

Finally I'd like to point out one line on p. 309 talking about Recruitment to Deathwatch: "Aside from the obvious skill the warrior has displayed, perhaps more important is his purity of heart and soundness of mind." I know it might sound a bit too touchy-feely to comprehend but it sure doesn't sound like they are recruiting the worst dregs of the galaxy whose psychopathy is only mathced by the amount of inches their guns add to their dicks.

I don't know what game AW is playing, but it sure doesn't seem like this one. At least not if FFG is asked.

++++A subgroup of the NPC's organization++++

If I remember correctly they have made The Deathwatch an equal status ally of the Inquisition, largely because Marines don't take **** from anyone. See also the remarkably democratic no leaders thing within the kill team.

++++First, it would be unusual in my group.++++

There is, again in my experience, probably an element in this of them knowing it won't work, not that they either don't want to or wouldn't enjoy it. Putting up with being an NPCs ***** is so much a part of roleplaying that players just accept it.

++++At absolute best, the SM would be stripped of any Renown and likely sent back to his Chapter in shame. At worst, he'd be declared a traitor and his Captain would cleanse the DW of his betrayal with the handiest weapon.++++

But it doesn't have to be like that. Inquisitors in the stories are often just some dude, with, like, a Guardsman and a Kroot as backup.

Given that this is a game focusing on how awesome and cool Space Marines are and not how awesome and cool Inquisitors are we can choose the coolest Marines and the least impressive Inquisitors and get a situation where Marines can off Inquisitors all day long with no real reprocussions beyond an admonishment to the =I= not to be so ******* disrespectful to the sons of the God Emperor.

Because the Marines are more valuable and their watch captain always has their back, no matter what.

++++Would your players feel bad because Mordigael is clearly a much more powerful character++++

Well, the coach is usually not a better player (any more) than the sportsman in their charge. The police chief can't bust heads and Get Results like the Maverick Cop. Why do the NPCs always have to be better than the PCs?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I never said anything to any other effect. What I did say so was that an Inquisitor very well might become lazy and that I don't see someone else really keeping tabs on him and what he does unless he's been lazy for prolonged times and/or doesn't change places from time to time.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

On the subject of trigger-happy psychopaths you and I would have to disagree but that's because my interpretation is partially based on RT-era fluff. Hopefully the hypno-indoctrination takes care of the worst of it but then again some chapters might not want that. They might want trigger-happy psychopaths as long as they respect their Brothers.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Uh-huh, I see.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Enjoy your Reasonable Marines 40K.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Watch more movies and read more pulp novels.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Wrong, it puts the KT in a situation of where they have to decide how much they are willing to have their actual mission be delayed or interfered with for the sake of an Inquisitor who is d*cking them around, for example, because he is a power-conscious individual who sees the Astartes as threat to the almighty authority of the holy Inquisition, someone who never accepted the DW as partners and thinks they should be rather subordinate instead.

Personally I prefer Hollywood realism where people do act unreasonable a fair amount of time because it makes for more interesting plots and situations rather than "Okay, we're all serious professionals in here". Is Hollywood realism more realistic? Hell, no. But people consider it more entertaining.

Alex

Zakalwe said:

The Deathwatch are not subordinates of the Inquisition. The Deathwatch was founded as partner organization based on a mutual oath by the Inquisition and the Astartes home chapters.

Alex

AluminiumWolf said:

You know, the beginning of the first sentence is completely OK, that's the rest that goes wacky. It's your own choice to make if you want the coolest SMs to be faced with the most idiotic Inquisitors. That it should happen here and there is completely acceptable. But that shouldn't lead to "offing Inquisitors all day long", that's all. Once again, you don't need to kill important persons to be cool. Think of the Knights of the Round Table. They really don't "off" that many people/ But they are ultimately cool because they have a goal, and because no matter what problems they face, they will overcome them through sheer willpower and skills. That's another vision of cool I find more attractive than "Meessa kills anyone I want, biatch". YMMV, that's what everyone's saying.

As for Mordigael, the thing is, Space Marines hierarchy is supposed to be quite clearly darwinian: SMs are always involved in the shittiest fights, and only the best of the best can ascend to responsabilities. You could rule it out, considering that nominations in the DW are more political than based on real skills, though, I'll admit that. Then again that means you consider the DW to be more or less "the Inquisition's *****", because I don't see Space Marines promoting someone who isn't "the best for that assignment" on political grounds if they're not coerced to.

As for the Chamber Militant / "sub-organization" thing, OK, the DW isn't technically under the Inquisition's command. That's what allows Watch Captains to refuse some missions, for example. Marines effectively have the right to calmly tell an Inquisitor that his mission is pure bull and that nobody is going to lose an arm and a leg (should that be easily replaced with augmetics) for it. But the Space Marines from the Deathwatch are oath-bound to the Inquisition. And that should mean a lot to Space Marines, whose vision of honor and loyalty is often described as ranging from "absolutely vital" to "completely unavoidable". What I mean is that the Inquisition is a peer to the Space Marines, especially those in the Deathwatch. You don't kill an important ally just because he was talking sh*t. A DW Marine doesn't kill an Inq because he was talking sh*t. Then again, if the Inq goes crazy and dangerous, the question isn't the same. Context, you must haz it.

++++you don't need to kill important persons to be cool++++

But it is, on ocassion, hilarious.

You do, I feel, need to demonstrate that important people respect you, or that if they don't they have sorely underestimated you, possibly by punching them in the teeth.

++++Marines effectively have the right to calmly tell an Inquisitor that his mission is pure bull++++

Why calmly? These are Space Marines, not responsible adults rationally discussing their divorce.

'Piss off little man, we're busy'* is an entirely acceptable response to an Inquisitor who pops up and starts trying to order the might Space Marines about.

For that matter so is brandishing weapons when he responds with 'How dare you speak to me this way?' (and remembering that saying 'This is madness! No man threatens an Inquisitor!' is just a feed line to kick him in to a pit while shouting 'THIS. IS. ITHAKA!')

What better way to demonstrate that Astartes are really cool than to show that even the much vaunted inquisitors often get put in their place by Space Marines?

*As might be picking him up by his collar to bring him up to the Marines eye level, giving him a look, and then putting him down out of the way of the kill team.

Or possibly pushing him over with a single finger and then walking off.

Why should anyone show your SMs respect when they clearly hold none for others? We've already covered that Inquisitors are not the inferiors of the Astartes, yet you argue they should show the SMs courtesy even as the KT is looking to kick someone into a giant pit just to feel good. Respect goes both ways.

Sure, you can threaten the Inquisitors. You're stronger, tougher. But the Inquisitor has contacts. Resources. Plenty of combat experience. And there's every chance he or she is a strong enough psyker to liquefy your brain before you know what hit you.

Wolverine (Marvel's little cash cow) is supposed to be an invincible warrior. Do you know what happened when a telepath decided to remove him?

Yeah, that's Wolverine acting like a little girl, playing with the paper dolls he made with his claws. No matter how tough you are, there's someone that can put you in your place. That's why you don't act like a jerk for no reason other than to "look cool."

I get that you think Inquisitors are cooler than Space Marines. What I question is whether this view will result in maximum enjoyment for Space Marine players in a Space Marine game.

AluminiumWolf said:

You're completely missing the point. Who is cooler is entirely a judgment call and doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. I don't like Inquisitors any more than I like Space Marines. I've read about Inquisitors I didn't like, just as there are plenty of SMs that seemed to be a waste of gene-seed. And I thoroughly enjoyed reading about Eisenhorn and Ragnar. Just being an Inquisitor or Space Marine doesn't make you cool, just as it doesn't make you a ravening murderer who enjoys kicking puppies. Those characters exist, sure, but it's not automatic that characters act like that.

It's really quite simple. I think everyone can agree that an Inquisitor and DW Space Marine are basically equal. They can't give each other orders, and they are both incredibly powerful, just in different ways. Since we're talking about people that are supposed to be allies in the war against Humanity's enemies, they deserve equal amounts of respect. Inquisitors should show respect to SMs, but SMs should show the same respect in turn. If your Space Marine is being insulting to an Inquisitor, why shouldn't the Inquisitor respond in kind? If, for some reason, the Inquisitor is being a jerk, be a jerk back if you want. Just as the Inquisitor would be out of line for boiling your brain or declaring you a corrupted traitor for a snide comment, it would be just as improper to shoot the Inquisitor for not being polite.

DH Core book pp.272

"...Most Space Marine Chapters are part of this ancient agreement, sending Space Marines with the most appropriate skills to be trained and equipped for a term of service as specialised alien hunters under the command of the Ordos Xenos. A squad of Deathwatch Space Marines is invaluable when an Inquisitor comes to exterminate an alien infestation, investigate a potentially deadly alien world or eliminate a particularly loathsome creature. Some Deathwatch squads are placed at the disposal of a conclave, but most of them are appointed to the retinue of a particular Inquisitor until his mission is complete."

Wouldn't some of those 'appropriate skills' be the ability to follow a chain of command and communicate effectively with non-marines? The issue seems to have become confused. It's not the case that any old inquisitor 'X' can walk up to any old deathwatch marine mid mission and say "you will..." because the marine will say "who are you, you better take that up with inquisitor 'Y' I because I'm busy working for him".

When I was in the service on combined exercises with French forces, if a superior officer had given me a rude order would I have punched him in the face just because I am not French and I am physically capable of doing it?

No one is doubting how cool space marines are. If they can't work within the command chain they wouldn't make it into deathwatch. This isn't a pissing contest about how tough space marines are, they don't exist to just wander round at their own pleasure ******* up anything that takes their fancy, the deathwatch are the Chamber Milirtant of the Ordos Xenos, and as described they often work for Inquisitors.

What's the big deal with that? It should viewed as an honour rather than something that you want to scrape off your boot. Inquisitors are much rarer than marines and they exist to fight existential challenges to the Imperium.

Come on AW, we've been through this in other threads and I thought it was agreed that we could have different views of SMs without fundamentally challenging each other perception of reality. We all play the game differently so there's no need to get so upset that not everyone agrees that a space marine needs to be an invulnerable main battle tank that murders someone just because someone looked at him funny.

So much of this thread is really just a semantic argument about what 'awesome' and 'cool' mean and that is totally subjective.

Take it from someone who has wielded command, . If an inquisitor has command and acts like a good leader, he will be followed and respected. If an inquisitor doesn't have command but acts like a good leader he will be respected, and may or may not be followed as circumstances allow. If an inquisitor is a jerk (whether he has command or not), he'll get treated like a jerk.

So I guess that's my message, if an 'Inquisitor' acts like a jerk, then yeah, he'll get treated like one.

AluminiumWolf said:

So basically you think that people 'respect' you when they are afraid of you?

Newsflash: It doesn't work like that. Fear leads to loathing, not respect. So what shall it be? Do you really want your marines to be respected, or do you want everyone just to look like they respect them when they, inreality, fear and loath them and secretly think they're a bunch of sorry clowns?

So Deathwatch marines are supposed to be equal to Inquisitors. Okay. I can go with that. The problem is that you are not advocating for this. You basically say that Deathwatch SM are supposed to seem equal to Inquisitors while actually being above Inquisitors, being able to intimidate Inquisitors around and killing them if they don't obey.

I think you have been watching too many films about street gangs and actually started to believe in them. Well, even the world of street gangs don't work like that. You don't get respect by punching people in face. What you get is people acting like you want them to because they are a afraid. Thats not respect. The problem is that the most violent gang members usually die youngest. Why? Because people don't respect them for **** and instead loath and fear them so somewhere along the line someone thinks its easier to kill them off. Thats how it goes. You scare someone bad enough and you might actually tip him over the point where he WILL murder you. Even a pencil-neck coward can wield a firearm and being 'cool' doesn't make you bulletproof. Trust me on this. I know.

I'm just telling this only in case you ever feel like trying out your ideas of what 'respect' and 'being cool' are in real life. Your local town doesn't need another John DOA.

ak-73 said:

But we've moved on from the initial point.

My point was in response to the idea that Marines shouldn't 'be anybody's *****' , and that a violently anti-authoritarian attitude is in any way acceptable in an elite military unit. Got a uniform? You're someone's *****. End of story. You either learn to accept that, or get very good a press-ups before inevitably washing out. Players in a military game throwing their toys out of the pram whenever they get an order is just a bit lame, to my mind.

I really don't think it unrealistic to have Inquisitors with complete drive and dedication. I think it's unrealistic to have Inquisitors lacking such a thing. Ranulph Fiennes, Kim Jong-Il... that's the kind of drive I'd expect from an Inquisitor. Inquisitors might have no issue with enjoying the finer things in life, but I think that any Inquisitor who reaches his position and then just sits back is kinda breaking my suspension of disbelief and somewhat likely to wind up dead somehow. I'm not saying that such creatures do not exist, but that there is a very well defined reason for their loss of drive and impunity that is a story unto itself.

The over-all authority of the Ordo Xenos / Deathwatch has no bearing. If the Watch Captain tells you to go and play nice with an Inquisitor, those are the orders, and he is the authority. Saying 'we don't take orders from an Inquisitor' isn't a get-out from following the orders of the Watch Captain. If the marines turn up and say 'yeah, we didn't do the mission you sent us on because the guy we were supposed to bodyguard was a jerk and we shot him' is not an acceptable outcome as far as the Deathwatch is concerned.

A soldier who can't follow an order, takes no crap, and whose retort to any demand or request is intimidation and psychotic violence is not a towering example of uberness. They're just pathetic and weak.

AluminiumWolf said:

Some good roleplay. A bit more than just rolling a dice and saying "BOO-YA, I killed a big thing!" because I can't think of anything duller than just constantly winning without having to put any thought into anything and playing a superhero psychopath with an attitude problem for an evening. Not everybody wants to roleplay an enormous psychopathic jerk, actual special forces operators are not macho sociopathic morons who didn't get laid enough, and character generation gives PCs 10 points more Int, WPand Fel than normal humans as well as years of hypno conditioning, indicating that they should have more wits, self-control and personality than a football hooligan.

I want to play a Space Marine RPG, not a Thrud the Barbarian RPG.

It has be repeatedly pointed out that players should generally be on a long lead and NOT bossed around, but once in a while there WILL be someone there who can pull rank on them and tell them what to do. Is that really so whack and game-spoiling? If so, then I recommend ceasing to provide them with missions, because you're just making them your *****, and they won't enjoy it.

And no: It's not usual behaviour for my players to randomly draw on the majority of NPCs...

Siranui said:

Amen to this.

Siranui said:

Funnily enough some of my players have, at times, spent literally hours on their Space Marines discussing things and roleplaying the differences of their respective chapters. Which was quite pleasantly surprising to note when all I did was trying to gently nudge them towards the next fight without resulting to too draconian measures to get the mission running faster.

++++and that a violently anti-authoritarian attitude is in any way acceptable in an elite military unit.++++

Chains of command cause problems in RPGs, and it behoves us to go quite far out of our way to ensure the idea of authority never comes up. Again I point to the lack of a leader within a Kill Team as an example of the lengths one should go to avoid it.

As such, I propose that The Knights of the Round Table are a better model for Marines than, say, the USMC.

You will remember that the KotRT got their name by sitting at a round table with no head, signifying that they were all of equal Status.

Rather than being mere cog in a machine with no potential for independent action (or roleplaying beyond shouting SIR YES SIR), Marines in a loose warrior brotherhood with enough authority/coolness to defy NPCs gain far more choice to determine their own path. And, yknow, have their own opinions on stuff.

Under this system, a Watch Captains role is largely to make the PC Marines aware of opportunities for glory that have opened up, but planning and execution are left in the hands of the PCs. If they phone home for instructions, he always tells them to make the call, and he will back their decision. Shades of the Dogs in the Vineyard RPG, where the GM is not allowed to comment on the validity of the Dogs solutions to the problems they face.

Making decisions, making calls, not just following orders.

--

What I call for is that in a Space Marine game, the GM goes out of his way to always take the most charitable possible reading of whatever the PCs get up to.

If they off an Inquisitor, rather than having them shot for treason the GM instead has their Watch Commander say something like 'yeah, I hate those guys too. Don't worry, I'll smooth it out. Sounds like he had it coming anyway'. Maybe even invent a turf war between the Deathwatch and Inquisition over who is in charge and general policy direction that has become so acimonious that shootouts between Deathwatch teams and Inquisitors are no more uncommon than those between rival Inquisitors (as we know from the Inquisitor game Inquisitors try to kill each other all the time).

Basically, assume that the PCs are cool. Assume that what they do is cool, then justify it.

Find out how Marines act by, yknow, seeing how the players play them.

Whether you decide to make nice with the Tau for The Greater Good or let a thousand worlds burn rather than treat with the filthy Xenos scum, Marines always make the right decision, and look good doing it.

AluminiumWolf said:

Chain of command is not same as making no decisions. Kill Team is given a mission and its up to them to plan, prepare and execute it the way they deem fit. They are the professionals. If they succeed the honor is all theirs, if they fail the dishonor is also all theirs. If the mission is to escort an Inquisitor then the parameters of success are escorting the Inquisitor. Killing your VIP just because you don't like him or her is dishonorable failure and should be treated as such.

GMs job is not to comment PCs actions beyond being PCs eyes and ears but its also not to railroad PCs to success no matter what they do. If the players are making a decision based on something they wrongly assume but their characters should know better then GM is obliged to remind them of what their characters should know. GM has **** big responsibility because he is, in effect, all the senses and much of the memory of a character. Decisions should be players to make, but information known to characters should be given to them by GM.

AluminiumWolf said:

I disagree strongly. If you treat your players with kid gloves and bail them out of every problem they get into its not very enjoyable game in the long term. What is success worth if you never had a chance to fail in the first place? Like I said before GMs job is to be the senses and memory of characters and keep the world consistent. RPG is not a movie script or a novel where the protagonists always succeed no matter how stupid they act. If the players make a great decision the honor and the glory should be theirs. Give them XP and Rep. If they go and mess things up, it should rightfully be their mess and they should pay the price.

AluminiumWolf said:

No. No; it really doesn't. DW is a military themed game, and the GM going out of their way to remove any authority is just ignoring the major theme of the game (Like playing D&D without looting everything that moves and becoming awash with magical items). Some would say the entire point of the game is the military theme, especially considering that the standard adventure format is 'Your 1IC gives you a mission, and you go and complete as much as what you've been told to complete as possible using stuff that you borrow from the stores'. If players want to play thinly masked thugs who murder people for no reason, then I can run BC for them, but this is Deathwatch and military themed games should be played as such to some degree. I'm not going to leap through any hoops to remove authority figures from the game.

Having a chain of command outside of the inter-party dynamic and being held responsible for your decisions is not enforcing players to be devoid of thought, nor to be shouting 'sir' at each other. Quite the reverse. I'd argue strongly that allowing players to do what they want to who they want encourages them to stop thinking. "We can off an Inquisitor because it's funny? Yeah, let's do it! *bang* haha". I can't actually think of a worse game table to sit around, barring possibly an Amber game, or something equally diceless and pointless.

(Hmm... Actually, it's funny that it many ways the two opposite ends of the macho gaming spectrum have met. The more slack the GM gives you to do whatever you want and panders to player's power-fantasies, the closer the game gets to becoming just the kind of 'roleplay not rollplay, we're all here to share a story and explore a shared imagination' happy-clappy RPGs that make my blood boil. I don't want a GM-player love-in exploring five men's needs to wave their wedding tackle around in each other's company: I want a challenge and to have to use my brain to solve difficult problems, and if I screw up, I want to have to then think my way out of the repprecusions of my mistakes, too.)

DW as a game does indeed go to extremes to encourage 'open leadership' in teams because most players prefer it that way and find overly authoritarian leadership dull, while many people who want to play the team leader would make things dull via that kind of dictitorial leadership style. I think that most mature groups can handle more authoritarian play than that when it emerges as a theme, or is required. Heck: Some groups even really enjoy having an authoritarian leader amongst them because it's an interesting roleplay challenge and a theme absent from most forms of RPG.

Arthur's knights still had a king. And Feudal obligations. And some people got to sit at his side at the table. Not a good example of democracy.

I like to challenge my players and be challenged as a player. I don't want a game where I play a literally unstoppable character, nor one where every dumb-ass choice I make is backed up by simpering NPCs and a GM who never punishes me for doing moronic things. Letting players do whatever they want and then rewarding them isn't giving them real choices at all.

++++I don't want a GM-player love-in exploring five men's needs to wave their wedding tackle around in each other's company++++

But you have to admit it is pretty appropriate for a milleu as hypermacho as Space Marine roleplaying.

This isn't a bittersweet romance between a fifty something poet and his cleaning lady. There is a time for maturity and a time to embrace the enthusiasm of youth, and playing a Space Marine is definately the latter.

--

The way to be effective in a roleplaying game is usually to figure out what the GM thinks is cool and play to that. A Clever Plan is one that the GM will like.

I say that for Space Marine roleplaying we need to be biasing what counts as a Clever Plan towards what a fourteen year old Space Marine fanboy would think is cool!

This is roleplaying after all - the GM should be roleplaying a fanboy and basing his judgements on what they would do. WWaSMFD?

--

I mean, what, as a Mature gamer, particularly attracts you about playing a Space Marine? The most I get is that it is kinda like playing one of King Arthurs Knights, or a Greek Hero IN SPACE!

But there is always a strong current of I want to f**k stuff up with my enormous Space Marine muscles like I dreamed about when I was a kid.