ak-73 said:

I wasn't claiming that the Inquisitor was holding all the cards; merely that it's a mistake to underestimate an Inquisitor.

ak-73 said:

Not likely - people who just want to be left alone and have a quiet life tend not to fare well in service to the Inquisition.Ascendance to the Inquisition is darwinian - those who aspire to bear the Seal either thrive or they die. I regard the likelihood of an Inquisitor who just wants to sit back and relax to be about the same as finding a Space Marine of that mindset.

ak-73 said:

The Deathwatch are far from the only force with access to Exterminatus weaponry, though (the quote refers to their access to the vaults within the Watch Fortresses, rather than access to Exterminatus). The Imperial Navy have access to such weapons as well, though they lack the authority to wield them under all but the most exceptional circumstances (that's typically where Inquisitors intervene - they have the right to condemn a world to death, while the Navy and the Astartes both have the ammunition necessary to carry that order out).

Even then, that's a Watch Commander, rather than a Kill-Team... it'll likely take a lot to get an (extremely busy) Watch Commander involved in an internecine dispute of this sort. A Kill-Team doesn't have the sort of authority to match an Inquisitor. He is a Peer of the Imperium, and while they may work for an equally-empowered Peer of the Imperium, they themselves lack those rights and priviledges.

ak-73 said:

Which, if you read my earlier post (the one I wrote before the one you quoted), is pretty much what I've been saying all; indeed, it's pretty much what I always say on the matter - Imperial politics at the highest levels are about personal alliances and the ability to provide the threat of force. No matter who you are or what your particular role empowers you to do, by the time you're rubbing shoulders with Magi, Inquisitors, Astartes Chapter Masters, Lord Admirals, Rogue Traders and the like, it all boils down to who you know and what they're willing to do for you.

Stormast said:

Again, Deathwatch Watch Captains, the advacement class for players, can order whole words burned with a single word. They don't need permission from the Inquisition.

I don't know why everyone gets all worked up about the Inquisition. They aren't as fearsome or deadly as Grey Knights. At least Guardsmen can still live after seeing an Inquisitor and Space Marines, outside of Deathwatch, don't get mind wiped after looking in the awe-inspiring-presence of Grey Knights.

Grey Knights and the Ordo Assassinarium should be more feared than the Inquisition. The Inquisistion is here for a reason, they should rightfully be both feared and respected.

MexicanNinja said:

As for Space Marines in general they have a mandate to "protect the mankind with any means they see fit", which would, technically, include Exterminatus. However, many Marine chapters are loath to do this on their own because they understand that working together with other Imperial organizations instead of going solo is the best way to protect mankind. Some chapters just don't care because they see everyone else either so much inferior or corrupt and see it as their inalienable right to do whatever they **** wish. Many of them get Exterminated by inquisition and other Chapters because of their attitude.

Deathwatch is simply a formalized structure of marine chapters doing exactly what they have mandate for together with Inquisition. Since its not a single chapter and it works together with Inquisition they are way more free to go to extreme lenghts as they are technically under Inquisition supervision and any excesses do not reflect purely on their own chapter.

MexicanNinja said:

Inquisition has virtually unlimited rights. A literal Emperors permission for anything. However, they are limited in power because each Inquisitor is essentially a one-man-show. There are coteries but each Inquisitor has his or her own resources and contacts. This also means that successfull inquisitor HAS to be a masterfull player in Imperial politics. Which, in turn, makes him VERY dangerous to anyone who is not. Like any normal Space Marine.

Officio Assassinorum is very powerfull, but it has absolutely no rights on its own. At all. All deployments of Assassins for any purpose whatsoever must be authorized by High Lords of Terra. This means that you have absolutely nothing to fear from Assassin unless you are already heretic enough to have a **** lot of fear from every loyal Imperial organization in existence. On the other hand you don't want to step in the way if Assassin is on his mission: His mission carries the mandate directly from High Lords.

Grey Knights are a bit of a special case being both inside Inquisition like Deathwatch but being totally outside any control by anyone. They are effectively renegade chapter but since they are (or at least seem to be) on the same side as Imperium is, since they are so **** secret that not even other Space Marines know they even EXIST and since they are so **** ruthless at killing off anyone who they think they need to there simply isn't an organization that is both powerfull enough and actually knows of their renegade existence to stop them. They are the ultimate loose cannon.

Polaria said:

Who is a "normal" space marine. What do you think an Inquisitor is going to do to Marneus Calgar if Marneus told him, "NO!"? I mean, this is one few of the Inquisition. Yes, they have power, yes they are power figures, yes they play a powerful game, however, they don't have the final say over Asartes Chapters.

No, the High Lords of Terra are not the only ones who are able to authorize the use of Assassins. There is plenty of "fluff" that was presented to the 40K universe through a few codices about how powerful the assassins were. Nothing to fear from assassins, let them find out that some pyskers went rogue and watch what they send towards them.

Again, no, it is not true that Space Marines do not know of the existence of Grey Knights. There are rare cases when they don't mind wipe Space Marines after they have been in the presence of Grey Knights. I don't think they'd mind wipe Lasander.

MexicanNinja said:

Badab War: When things finally got out of hand it was one whole Chapter was destroyed and three other chapters stripped of their homeworlds and sent on 100 years of penitent crusade on orders of one, single Inquisitor. When this Inquisitor finally did interfere on the happenings several Space Marione Chapters and the Sectorial Imperial Navy fleet (which had not responded to petitions of sectorial governors earlier) moved on his orders. I think that is some serious amount of very real power and unless you are a chapter master of a first founding chapter (like Mr. Calgar or equivalent) you rightfully SHOULD be carefull around Inquisitors. When talking about Inquisition its always about the balance of power: They have the MANDATE to do wahtever they wish, but do they have the real power to execute it? Depends on Inquisitor. This one could have final say so over the fates of four Chapters because he had more guns backing him.

MexicanNinja said:

The fluff is pretty admant on OA being authorized for development by High Lords of Terra and them alone. On Crusades, big campaigns and such the chapter master admiral, general or inquisitor can have an assassin deployed under his command and naturally he can then give missions to the assassin, but whether he is given an assassin to start with is purely in hands of High Lords. No marine or inquisitor can just march into OA temple and demand an assassin and no OA temple have the right to deploy assassins on their own.

MexicanNinja said:

Depends on how literally you take the new Grey Knight fluff. It might be that chapter masters know. Or it might be that few, very selected chapter masters know. It might be that only those who could refuse mindwipe and get away with it alive know. However, it is pretty clear that a standard Deathwatch marine, even if he is Veteran in his own chapter, will NOT know.

^

in case of Badab War, read IA books again. it was high inquisitor Lord with special mandate from High Lords of Tera and whole Imperium of Mankinind with right to judge one renegade chapter, and only when prof of their corruption was clear. Not some averange guy who won his inquisitorial roseta because his father best friend was cousin of local gubernator. IA Siege of Vraks (pt 2 or 3 dont remember witch one) have really nice fragment about imperial politics, inquisition is just one of power players in high end of imperium power structure and other organisations have inquisitors in high regard but their demands in their butts. Also conflicts amongst inquistion members are so common that it saps greater part of their power and time.

Also, Inquisition vs Space Wolves, some moronic inquisitor tried to make get of Russ obey, with force if needed. Pups attacked inquisitorial ships at moment when they entered their system, pride of inquisitor was harmed he put tail between legs and run away, nothing happens to Space Wolves.

Also if u can read about inquisitors in DH source books, having roseta mean nothing if u cannot backup your imperial right with firepower and friends in high places with even more firepower.

About assassins, whole imperium use them, thousands of assassins brotherhoods, guilds and other such organisations exists and never will stop, its just imperial way of doing politics. In case of OA, their assassins are just better and have leash bound to imperium. (And one of OA bosses once killed all High Lords of Tera just for his insane fun)

I see it like this: who are you going to side with? A possibly well-connected member of a mythical inquisitorial organization which stands above the law or a member of mythical angelic warrior-knights who can trace their blood lineage to the God-Emperor himself? If an inquisitor comes to you, being a planetary governor or other imperial official, for help, I'd have him ask for his plan and if I am not dead certain that the chapter of that Space Marine will never find out my involvement, I will try to have that inquisitor vanish.

Anyway there is no universally valid answer, it is all very situational.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Nothing is either than to engineer the death of your Acolytes and to pack your bags and move on. Plus the world is full of people working hars to achieve a certain status so that they don't have to work on from the point anymore. Finding and eliminating a complacent inquisitor on the run sounds like a fun DH mission premise. Perhaps even campaign level stuff.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Watch Commander Mordigael has less men under him than a standard marine chapter. From the description it sounds like he has less than 200 men to watch over. I suppose when one of the man falls, he personally has to pass condolences to the chapter master of the fallen. I assume that with any loss the Watch Captain will have to report to the Watch Commander personally as it is not an everyday event. He will be briefed on the circumstances of the death as far as they are known. If the remains are recovered, rituals will be observed.

Yeah, I see it very different from you. Let me quote the sentence that precedes the above quote (about Watch Commanders):

"They have the ear of the Inquisition and the Adeptus Astartes both, and on their authority entire sectors may burn." Not systems, not sub-sectors. Sectors. As in: all of Calixis. All of it. Although I am not sure if that quote isn't a bit hyperbole. Terra wouldn't be too happy about any of that.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And yet all that, all the politicking and shoulder-rubbing, can be cut short with a Free Action Quick Draw and a Full Action Burst. Especially when you are an Astartes.

My point is this: as long as there is no situation where there is no conflict of goals between a kill-team and an Inquisitor, everything is fine and dandy. If there is conflict of interest, the Inquisitor has to make sure he is **** prepared because unlike almost all imperial citizens, the Astartes are unlikely to take s**t if his actions are about to mess with their mission or their beliefs.

His rosette will not intimidate them, his being connected will not intimidate them (they are nearly (but not quite) unassailable while stationed on Erioch), the usual stuff doesn't work. All that works at that point is having been sufficiently prepared and bringing enough firepower to the table. And Astartes being who they are may not take that kindly and attack anyway, you never know.

The best chance you actually have is appealing to the authority given to them in the Emperor's name and hope that their sense of faith will make them play along (stupid suckers! ).

Nah, Deathwatch Astartes, being nominally part of the holy Inquisition (and of the Astartes), are unlikely to take any c**p. A smart inquisitor will rely rather on subtle manipulation because they do not scare Astartes, least of all Deathwatch Astartes. They know his technically unlimited power is meaningless and even his actual connections will not hinder them. Even if he has access to the highest quality assassins who could penetrate Erioch defenses - so what? No Astartes will be afraid of getting murdered in retribution. The usual stuff simply does not work for Inquisitors when it comes to Deathwatch Astartes. It's more like "You should rather be thankful that we're helping the Inquisition out, ingrate."

Alex

In short Space Marines don't take crap from anyone, especially in their own game.

If you have an ******* NPC you want the players to bootlick, save him for Dark Heresy.

ak-73 said:

Thing is, attaining the status of Inquisitor is really difficult. As in, once you've endured decades of gruelling, potentially-lethal apprenticeship, your ascension has to be ratified by three other Inquisitors or an Inquisitor Lord... I can't imagine that they'd let someone who's going to shirk their divinely-mandated responsibilities into the Holy Ordos. It'd be a waste of resources, not to mention downright embarrassing, to elevate someone inclined towards laxity.

And, given that the Imperium is frankly intolerant of laxity in the first place (a servant of the Adeptus Terra showing improper diligence to his or her duties is technically committing a criminal act), it becomes even harder to imagine that the Inquisition suffering those who wish only to hide in a quiet corner.

ak-73 said:

Sure... but think of the consequences. There are always consequences.

The thing about Inquisitorial politics is that they very much prefer to police themselves - if an Inquisitor turns rogue, then it will be by the word, will or hand of another Inquisitor that he falls. This is necessary for one reason and one reason only - to maintain the proper degree of fear and reverence (where appropriate). If people - any people - think that they can get away with murdering an Inquisitor without repercussions, then all hell may break loose as the implied authority of the Inquisition (the one that makes most people get out of the way and do what they're told when an Inquisitor commands it, without recourse to the Seal or any actual use of real authority) is damaged by the actions of an outsider.

They may bicker and squabble amongst themselves... but if an outsider stands against them, then they are much more likely to form a united front to put down this challenge to their organisation.

ak-73 said:

And similarly, they have to be willing to face the consequences of murdering one of the most senior servants of the Imperium.

ak-73 said:

Which brings us to the unusual stuff, the stuff unique to the relationship between the Inquisition and the Deathwatch. The Deathwatch exists due to ancient oaths and agreements between a number of Astartes Chapters and the Ordo Xenos, as a result of the decisions made during the Apocryphon Conclave. Just like the other two Chambers Militant, the Deathwatch is honour-bound to cooperate with the Inquisition. A Battle-Brother who swears the oaths that signify his service to the Deathwatch takes those agreements as his own, honouring them as he would any agreement between himself or his original chapter and another organisation (and it's these ties that form a crucial part of Astartes involvement across the Imperium).

In short, a Battle-Brother in service to the Deathwatch is honour-bound by his own volition to be an ally of the Inquisition. Going against that... can a Space Marine's personal sense of honour stand to go against the secret and solemn oaths he has sworn?

Yes, the Inquisition are similarly bound - that, likely, would be covered extensively by the protocols and procedures needed for an Inquisitor to secure the assistance of the Deathwatch directly, and probably means that the Inquisitors who do interact with the Deathwatch frequently do so with the utmost respect and solemnity, but the Deathwatch don't have licence to just butcher an Inquisitor because he or she was deemed annoying. That's a very fast and very certain way to cause all manner of political backlash.

A Watch Commander has the attention and support of the Inquisition and the Adeptus Astartes... why do you think that is? It's not going to be purely on his might as a combatant that a Deathwatch Battle-Brother becomes Watch Commander. While a Kill-Team may not be directly part of the interactions between the Inquisition and the Astartes, a Watch Commander will be embroiled in such things, by dint of his role and responsibilities. Mordigael invariably holds that lofty post because he is well-respected and well-regarded by a lot of important people (Lord Inquisitors and Chapter Masters), which probably means he knows the ins and outs of high-level politics. Amongst other things, that means that he has the burden of knowledge when it comes to political repercussions, and the unenviable task of handling them while ensuring that his subordinates can continue with their duties. Sometimes that means pushing back against the Inquisition... sometimes it means punishing a small group of his subordinates.

It's not clear-cut by any stretch of the imagination, and it's certainly not an opportunity for Deathwatch Marines or Inquisitors to bully their way around.

But the coolest people in the room in a Space Marine game are the Space Marines.

Right?

Fonz was pretty cool, but he didn't run the garage.

ak-73 said:

Pure propaganda, I feel.

And certainly I doubt Captains in regular chapters have full authority to burn even a single planet. There are 10,000 of them out there, and if they'd all excercised that right once every thousand years, 10% of the Imperium would be gone!

I don't but that Deathwatch kill-teams have that attitude. They were specially selected by their Chapter, and part of that selection (and conditioning) is following orders and probably the ability to play nicely with the Inquisition. Marines who are jerks to the Inquisition are unlikely to be selected. Plus: They'll do whatever their Captain tells them to do, and if that's playing nicely with the Inquisition, then they're breaching orders by being a jerk. If the boss says 'go along with this guy and if he says 'jump', then jump', then the Marines should be following orders, except under extreme circumstance.

Siranui said:

Check your facts. The imperium is regularly described as having more than a million worlds.

Whatever, you do'nt burn a whole sector, that complete bullcrap.

Captains in regular Chapters don't launch Exterminatus. Chapter Master may eventually, but they'll surely get the High Lords' attention, would it only be to understand why they decided to use the Exterminatus. But anyway, no Inquisitor, no Chapter Master, no AluminiumWolf Marine burns down whole sectors. That would be absolutely insane and missing the point.

And I can only approve what N0-1_H3r3 says. The theme of Deathwatch is not only "Marines getting the sh*t done and kicking arses". It's also "Marines interacting with the Inquisition, being bound to it, and having to manage that even if some may want to go berzerk and ***** around". An Inquisitor may not consider Marines his *******, that's for sure. But they better not treat him like a useless pice of trash either, cause if they do, I highly doubt any of their superiors will cover them. Marines don't cover idiots and gratuitous murders. Having collateral damage is one thing, killing an Inquisitor is freaking heresy...

So no, "He was being a *****" is not a good reason to kill an Inquisitor. Even if your marines think they are the coolest thing in the room. Sometimes, rule of cool also mixes nicely with rule of "Not complete bullsh*t".

Jackal_Strain said:

OK: A bit less than 10% of the Imperium.

***

Marines are supposed to be disciplined soldiers who respect the chain of command, not school-yard bullies or thugs with guns who just shoot whoever they feel like and mouth off to Inquisitors because they don't like the way they look, or whatever.

boruta666 said:

Yeah, well, the only problem is that you certainly can't get Inquisitors Rosette just for being someones pal and local guvernor sure as hell don't have any say on who gets them.

boruta666 said:

If you would have actually bothered to read what I wrote before answering you would have probably noticed that this is EXACTLY what I said. The trouble is that in order to BE Inquisitor in the first place you pretty much have to be far better connected than average Space Marine will ever be.

boruta666 said:

I wasn't actually talking about your average Thugs. Officio Assassinorum was mentioned so I talked about them SPECIFICALLY. And OA Temple Assassins are not just "better". Nope. They are whole other breed. They are good enough to give any Space Marine run for his money. The best of them came **** close of killing Primarchs in Horus Heresy times even when the Primarchs were surrounded by whole legions of Space Marines.

I mean I sure understand that when you are fanboy playing Space Marines in Space Marine game you easily feel that you should be a **** demigod and nobody should be able to tell you what to do, but that just ain't true. Common Space Marine troopers do exactly what their sergeants and captains tell them and I'm pretty **** sure no captain with any sense at all will tell you to shoot and bury an Inquisitor for being a bit rude. You might get away with in on the short term but killing off influential people will come back and bite your whole chapter in the ass later on... Which is something any marine who makes captain will understand.

You see the problem with Inquisition is that, by definition, they don't play by anyones rules and you simply can't tell how influential or powerfull any given Inquisitor is by just looking at him. Unless you know exactly who he or she is and how well he or she is connected you just never know how dangerous he or she is. With Space Marines you know pretty much all you need to know by just looking at his armor, rank insignia and chapter insignia. You know what rules he plays with and you can make a pretty good guess on what he can or can't do. With Inquisitor you are literally gambling your onw, and your chapters, future on blind luck. Maybe he's just a mook. Maybe he's Inquisitor Lords former best acolyte with good contacts to High Lords and can bring the whole world down on your, and your whole chapters, heads.

++++++++++++++ SPOILERS ON WH40K NOVELS +++++++++++++++++++++ SPOILERS ON WH40K NOVELS ++++++++++++++++++

Think of 2 different series:

The blood angels one with the corrupted Inquisitor, he got his influence from a supposed herioc deed and the BA chapter respects and follows his lead because he has "proven" himself to them, no rosetta, no threats. Just misplaced faith in his intentions and abilities.

The Soul Drinkers series:

They are made Hereticus and the inquisitor sends his executioner for a duel with the chapter master, the duel starts in bad faith but the Marine stays true to his way of thinking and doing things. He doesn't get pushed into acting in a way he sees as unfit for a marine.

Here is my view: As a marine you are a super-human made from the flesh of a demi-god, you where brainwashed and molded into a fighting machine with a set of rules. You follow them, they all do. Different interpretations, ways of doing things differ but they are all very dogmatic. So whatever you do, do it according to your set of rules, bend, extend, twist and paint over but do not break them.

All this is out the window if you playing Rambo on steroids... If you want to go that way then have fun, kill stuff and kill bigger stuff.

Isidro

N0-1_H3r3 said:

If only you could know for sure in advance who'll slack after having made it and who won't.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Similar to the Navigators, aye. Except as an organization they'll shy away of a p***ing context with the Adeptus Astartes unless there is a really severe threat to their standing which goes beyond a single Inquisitor being killed. The safest way of retribuition would be a temple assassin and not to make this into a political affair or a contest of power.

And I think certain Astartes think they can get away with murdering an Inquisitor without repurcussions. The Space Wolves (non-DW) would be such a candidate. In my impression they are fairly no-nonsense about what they do and consider their ways superior to all others.

To make a long story short: some Astartes might not care about the personal consequences if there is an actual, severe conflict of interests. Just as some Inquisitors might not care about sacrificing some Astartes.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

In a situation as described, an actual severe conflict of interests, most Astartes would not hesitate at the thought. They are drilled to throw their lives away for the sake of a higher cause. If you are trained to throw your body at a Hive Tyrant, the thought of being murdered in your sleep by a Temple Assassin holds less sway over you, especially if that is only a potential and not a certain outcome.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Let us remember the scenario I have been setting up: a situation with a conflict of interest. A severe conflict of interest. The kill-team has been ordered to save certain people. The Inquisitor is intent on having them killed and insist on it without explaining why. Or vice versa.

Only one party can have its way and neither is willing to back down.

Or an Inquisitor thinking he can order the DW around without actually having been given the authority. When they refuse to do so, he tries to force them to comply to his authority.

It's entirely possible that such situations lead to bloodshed. And the Space Marines sense of duty and honour is something that might not protect an Inquisitor under such circumstances as the superseding duty is normally the current mission. Normally. Not always. But those are the situations that can be resolved through talking.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You see that's where out views differ a bit: I see the universe a bit more... varied. Some Inquisitors might not give a **** about those protocols and just consider themselves the greatest. Some Inquisitors might have become lazy. Some Astartes might hate the Inquisition (or being in the Deathwatch) and just itch for a reason.

Unless you allow enough room for all kinds of different people, your characters will become cliched. And yes, some Astartes will have nothing but the deepest respect for the Inquisition as a whole and seek to comply to any Inquisitor's request or even orders without questioning, whether that Inquisitor has been given formal authority over them or not. In their understanding the DW might be formally partners of the Inquisition but should actually be their servants, their tools.

I think most Astartes would be too conscious of their status for that though.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I see the majority of Watch Commanders slightly differently: ultimately they are warriors and don't feel as much at home in the political arena, even when they are good at it and see the necessity for that. In my mind, most will try to keep the political aspect to a minimum, just enough so that their men can get their mission done. Which would be a weakness in times of inner conflict because it makes maneuvering for Inquisitors easier.

Perhaps I can express my point this way: Inquisitors are used to people crawling before them and doing what they are told without hesitation. Astartes have their own sense of pride and unlike with almost all others it does not diminish before the Inquisition. And that goes doubly so for the Deathwatch.

Alex

On the topic of lazy Inquisitors: If your goal is to attain a measure of status and power, just so you can lay back end enjoy life, going for the rank of Inquisitor would be the last on my list. There's hundreds, maybe thousands of positions that's infinitely easier to attain.

I can see how an Inquisitor that's been active for a long time might get weary and gradually loose his will to stay dedicated, and it would be reasonably easy for such an individual to retire into obscurity and luxury.

But I find the idea that someone would go through the hellish efforts of becoming an Inquisitor, just to "relax" silly.

ak-73 said:

The thing about the Inquisition is... and this is a good chunk of the reason for their ruthlessly effective reputation... is that they have a lot of ways to obtain information that others might deem impossible to know. Extensive psychic probing will be the least of any potential Inquisitor's trials to demonstrate his worth.

ak-73 said:

I can think of others. Orbital bombardment is a fairly certain way to crush recalcitrant Astartes with impunity, particularly as the Imperial Navy is far, far better at void warfare than the Astartes (Astartes vessels are superior blockade runners/planetary assault vessels), and deliberately so.

Power armour and inhuman strength are nothing compared to a lance strike.

ak-73 said:

Certainly... but we're not talking about non-Deathwatch Astartes here.

A Deathwatch Battle-Brother is not a normal Space Marine by any stretch, and it's not in his combat ability or his armament that the difference lies. The Deathwatch must necessarily be much more aware of the wider Imperium, and be far more open to unorthodox methods and ideas that challenge the dogma of their original Chapters.

In short, you don't get to wear the black and silver unless you can play well with those you might typically consider outsiders.

ak-73 said:

Sacrifice against the Enemies of Man, and being oblivious to or dismissive of the repercussions of murdering a highly-placed Servant of the Imperium are not the same thing, not by a long shot.

There's a difference between being without fear and being without intelligence. A normal Space Marine may not be required to think beyond the next tactical situation... but the Deathwatch are necessarily different, if only because of the wider range of situations and objectives they're required to face.

ak-73 said:

A purely hypothetical scenario with no context... lovely. Where have the Kill-Team's orders come from? Who are these people and why are they significant? Who is the Inquisitor?

There are too many unknown variables.

ak-73 said:

The thing about the Inquisition is that they don't actually need to be given any authority - they have the power to make any demands they want of anyone, and it's up to those that face them to decide whether or not to accede to those demands. In which case, the situation comes down to how can the Inquisitor make the Kill-Team's existence a living hell, or whether or not they feel like making a new enemy.

ak-73 said:

Such Inquisitors will likely find themselves face to face with a decidedly unimpressed Watch Commander or Watch Captain before they got anywhere near to a Kill-Team. Politics go both ways. I find it nigh-impossible to believe that safeguards and measures to keep internecine butchery are absent, given how generally paranoid the Imperium is about parts of itself turning against the rest.

ak-73 said:

Odds are, a "lazy" Inquisitor will work through intermediaries and acolytes rather than making a direct appearance him or herself.

ak-73 said:

In which case, they have no place within the Deathwatch and should be returned to their Chapters as soon as possible - the Deathwatch is no place for petulant troublemakers.

ak-73 said:

I have no issue with a variety of different types of people... but there are a variety of preconceptions and fundamental premises that I operate by. Foremost in this instance being that Astartes who have impulse control problems or a problem with authority figures and don't get nominated to join the Deathwatch (and seldom advance within their own Chapters), and that only a relative minority of Ordo Xenos Inquisitors actually ever call upon/serve alongside the Deathwatch, and those are the ones most likely to treat the matter with the solemnity it deserves.

ak-73 said:

Their status? As what? The Deathwatch exists as an ally of the Ordo Xenos. Murdering Inquisitors because they're annoying is so far beyond what their vaunted status permits that it's farcical, and is the sort of behaviour that will result in severe reprimands from within the Deathwatch, simply to ensure that the organisation and its chain of command are not diminished or their relationship with their allies remains as strong as it must be. The nearest real-world equivalent would be if members of the SAS started gunning down highly-placed CIA agents (or vice-versa, if one of America's various special forces started killing MI6 agents)... it's not the kind of thing that goes away cleanly and quietly, no matter how much a swift, clean resolution may be desired.

The Deathwatch can't exist alone, and it can't just shrug off matters of politics, regardless of whether or not an individual Kill-Team may show a reckless disregard for the consequences. It's demonstrably the responsibility of a Watch Commander (and to a lesser extent the Watch Captains under his command) to act with a full understanding of how the Imperium works and how to deal with outsiders. You seem to hold the opinion that the higher-ranking members of the Deathwatch will shrug and disregard the misdeeds of their subordinates, or even support them regardless of any other factors... I simply can't see it like that.

As an organisation, the Deathwatch exists in support of the Ordo Xenos, and the relationship goes both ways. An Inquisitor who misuses a valuable resource like a Kill-Team will not be well-regarded by his peers, and may even suffer for his presumption... but similarly, the Deathwatch can't effectively act in a situation where the local representatives of the Inquisition don't trust them because of past bloodshed. The Ordo Xenos needs the unique blend of precision and might that the Deathwatch provides, and the Deathwatch needs the connections and intelligence networks the Inquisition cultivates to give direction and purpose to their power. If one element on either side messes things up, it goes wrong for both sides.. and as a result, it is in the best interests of Inquisition and Deathwatch alike to make every effort to cooperate effectively.

++++I sure understand that when you are fanboy playing Space Marines in Space Marine game you easily feel that you should be a **** demigod and nobody should be able to tell you what to do++++

Good! we are on the same page.

Certainly placing Marines outside of the ordering aboutability of Inquisitors (or anyone else) is no more of a stretch than the gymnastics gone through to ensure that there is no chain of command or designated leader within a Kill Team.

Assume that Marines are self employed freelancers and anything said to them can be no more than a suggestion as to what they might enjoy doing. And if there is an NPC you really can't stand being upstaged by the PC Marines, keep him well away from the party.

Marines serve only the God Emperor of Mankind, and he isn't talking so the have to keep their own council.

--

There is no reason that Marines cannot have a reputation for being barely controlled engines of fury, such that the consequences of an Inquisitor being collateral damage in a Marine mission would be largely the following brief conversation at the next conclave:-

So did you hear what happened to Inquisitor Bob?

"No what?"

"He pissed off a Space Marine!"

"Wow, way to win a Darwin Award."

Fin.

--

I feel it is good if Marine are, or at least can be if you want, unstable machines of destruction who are about as safe to be around as a malfunctioning planetcraker warhead and smart NPCs treat them as such.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yeah but I'm not going run them as all-knowing. Nor am I going to run them as competent through-out. Nor do I have to assume that psychic probing will reveal a candidate who doesn't have any intention to live the good life once having attained rank. Unless you suggest looking into the future at which point it turns into "It's psychic powers, I ain't got to explain s**t."

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That would be a stupid way of handling it though if there was a Deathwatch vessel still in orbit. Because if that came to aid (even if just in self-sacrifice) to their brothers aid (or for vengeance), this would have serious repercussions for any inquisitor involved. Not to mention that the KT was presumably on a mission on the planet, a mission that asked for their presence instead of a lance strike.

If you was an Inquisitor PC in my game, you'd have Mordigael on your case until it was closed the hard way. Personally an Assassins strike on Erioch, while more complex to execute would probably the less escalating option.

But a smart inquisitor (or conclave) wouldn't even do that. Instead they'd approach the Watch Commander and ask for a trial to be held.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Doesn't have much bearing on the scenario I made up: an actual severe conflict of interests where neither side is willing to back down. You are free to fill in the blanks yourself.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

They are pretty much the same thing when both end up being obstacles to a mission that needs to be accomplished.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

What variables do you need beyond those that have been given to you. You are free to make up your own scenario where there is severe conflict of interests between a KT and an Inquisitor who they encounter by chance. If neither side is willing to back down and for both of them enough is at stake it probably won't end well.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Which might place the Inquisitor's life in immediate peril if the KT doesn't want their existance made living hell, especially if it would threaten to interfere with their current mission. Which is what they might have their mind more on than their existance beyond the current mission which they may not survive.

A Space Marines life is full of enemies. It is their Watch Commander's duty to protect them from repercussions of doing the Emperor's work.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I thought we were talking about a chance encounter in the field though.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Chance encoutner.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

A world in which most people are noble or reasonable, nice. Not the kind of world I play 40K in though. It's the fringe cases that make for better cinema.

As for the Astartes, there is entire chapters who only grudgingly uphold the ancient vow of sending their own to the Deathwatch. Again, my view of what is going on is more grim-dark. Some Marines, particular Space Wolves, might not be too enthusiastic about having to leave their pack behind.

Deathwatch doesn't equal Reasonable Marines chapter.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

From ancient terra the Emperor commands his proud sons.
From revered bloodstock these warriors are made his proud sons.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

If we're talking about annoying, if there is anything annoying is your presuming scenarios I did not suggest. I would like you to ask doing that, unless you are equaling being annoying with a severe conflict of interest where neither side is willing to back down. Luckily I am not easily annoyed, so it's all good.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

See what I said above about falsely presumed scenarios.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And if you had kept the scenario I suggested in mind, you would have realized that killing that Inquisitor might not be seen as a misdeed by their superiors but rather a necessary act to accomplish their mission.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Now if only everyone would act all the time reasonably... it would make for an efficient Imperium and for a bland storyline.

Alex

AluminiumWolf said:

Indeed that is one of the most interesting points in all of this. Technically, legally, the Inquisition should be in charge. I think formally they do have the authority. Yet the Astartes (Deathwatch or no) have a legitimacy that no Inquisitor can ever have. An informal legitimacy that no High Lord of Terra can ever have. Only through the legacy of the blood that is running through their veins.

I find this conflict of authority an interesting subject, something not to be cut short by having everyone act reasonably.

If everyone was acting always reasonable in story-telling, you might as well watch documentaries only. Irrespective of the genre - from horror over super heroes to romantic comedy (especially romantic comedy), the plot gets made interesting by people who are acting unreasonably.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Quite frankly, lazy, feckless Inquisitors doesn't fit my view of the setting. At all. There are plenty of people like that in the Imperium, but those who somehow end up in the service of the inquisition tend to end up dead as a consequence of being generally lacklustre human beings.

ak-73 said:

At which point, you'll protest that my "filling in the blanks" has missed the point entirely... I've been in internet discussions before, I know how they work.

Thing is, I'm reminded of the short story Exhumed, by Steve Parker - a Deathwatch short story, written to the same background we're discussing here (because the author was sent copies of it) - where the Kill-Team are given the order by an Inquisitor to execute the personnel of an Adeptus Mechanicus dig site at the end of their mission... the Kill-Team's leader doesn't want to, but the Kill-Team complies anyway (mainly because one of the other Marines forces the matter). The Inquisitor isn't directly present at all - they don't even know his real name - but it sums up for me the interactions between an Inquisitor and a Kill-Team.

ak-73 said:

Not really an answer.

"Needs to be accomplished"? Really?

I don't see the Kill-Team having any actual say in the matter, beyond bullying and generally acting like swaggering idiots. In my opinion, the matter is simple: the Kill-Team honours their oath, does as the Inquisitor demands, and then if they've got a problem with it, they bring it up with their Watch Captain, who actually has the authority and experience to deal with the matter.

If the alternative is Space Marines having a tantrum (albeit a tantrum that ends in bloodshed), then I'd rather see restraint.

ak-73 said:

Just as it's their Watch Commander's duty to protect the ongoing mission of the Deathwatch from the mistakes of his subordinates.

ak-73 said:

I don't know about you, but I don't tend to put Inquisitors on random encounter tables.

"Chance encounter in the field" is, IMO, ludicrous, particularly if the situation is one likely to end in bloodshed.

ak-73 said:

Chance encounter is more likely with that Inquisitor's acolytes/throne agents. Who are far more likely to stand aside and let the Astartes do what they want.

ak-73 said:

Noble, reasonable and nice? Hardly. Ruthless, efficient and cunning.

Frankly, I'd rather not deal with a version of 40k where the Inquisition consists primarily of the petty tyrants, feckless cowards and witless megalomaniacs, or where an elite organisation of Astartes chosen from many Chapters is populated with the unstable, the psychotic and the trigger-happy.

ak-73 said:

Clearly you and I have different ideas as to what grimdark means. Yours, to my mind, seems to be far more of a farce, rife with far too many people who would be utterly pointless in hugely important roles. I don't feel that "grimdark" has to equal "everyone is a screwed up and wretched example of humanity who wouldn't look out of place in a Tim Burton movie".

As for upholding the vow... it's not a tithe. A Chapter isn't required to send X number of Marines every century... it's a choice. If a Chapter has a problem with sending Astartes to the Deathwatch, they don't send anyone.

ak-73 said:

If anything, yes it does - the Deathwatch get called upon to do things that would cause nothing but disgust in those not of the Deathwatch. It requires a degree of "plays well with others" and "can put personal feelings aside in the name of fighting a common enemy".

Space Marines who struggle with those simple matters of personal discipline.. they're the ones who get sent on decades-long penitent crusades into the most dangerous corners of the galaxy. They're not the kind of Space Marine who gets sent to the Deathwatch.

I'm not inclined to put a square peg in a round hole for the sake of more easily stereotyped NPCs. I'm not inclined to run Inquisitor Weiss and the Seven Battle-Brothers (Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Bashful, Sneezy, Dopey, and their Apothecary, Doc).

ak-73 said:

His proud sons who have a history of heresy and betrayal... is it any wonder the Inquisition doesn't trust them?

ak-73 said:

Doesn't make it any better for them.

The right choice, the easy choice, the necessary choice... none of them should ever come without consequences, especially in 40k. That's where I get my grimdark - heroism tainted by compromise, the right choices tarred with terrible consequences and necessary sacrifices... not surly, petulant Astartes and lazy, incompetent Inquisitors.

I got fed up with it in WFRP - the sheer number of incompetent and/or corrupt authority figures in WFRP1 basically made me sick of the whole concept.

ak-73 said:

Reasonably? Clearly, you're reading something into what I'm writing that isn't my intent.

Organisations like the Deathwatch and the Inquisition exist because the Imperium is inefficient. They exist to bypass the inefficiencies, so that the Imperium can acutally defend itself.

And what if some fanboy doesn't want to play their Space Marine as somebodies *****?

I don't think it is all that unlikely that people will want to play their SPACE MARINES, not Dark Heresy losers now, but SPACE MARINES as Masterless Men.

Cause seriously, we are talking about Space Marines here. This isn't a touching portrayal of one womans battle with cancer. This is a Space Marine, who is pretty much intended for juvenile power fantasies. As such, it seems churlish and rather wasteful to try to deny people the fun of playing a steriotypical kill crazed PC, especially when barely restrained psychotic fits so well with Space Marines. I mean, when is there going to be a better opportunity to cut lose and have some fun?

If you look up Adolescent Power Fantasy in a dictionary there is a picture of a Space Marine.

Now, we can do everything we can to make the game meaningful and deep and ****, but lets not kid ourselves about the kind of experience people want out of playing a SPACE MARINE! (as a hint, I suspect being someones ***** is not it).