Being a big fan of both weapons, I have noticed that storm-bolters are always the preferred choice for the players in my group.

I was wondering if this was the same trend in all groups? And if yes, if someone had an idea to make the combi-bolter a more viable alternative, as I find it a shame if it is never used.

Personally I would probably also pick the storm-bolter if I had to chose. For now I am thinking about making the combi-bolter a bit less expensive as an upgrade to their standard bolter (or make it their default weapon when they reach distinguished perhaps), as I do not wish to boost the stats of it more than already.

Combi-bolters are always outclassed by Storm Bolters even under the optional rules. The Storm-Quality is to powerful compared to a underpowered one-shot weapon!

If it weren't for the coolness of DK carrying a Storm Bolter armmounted, we won't allow them on anything but Dreadnaughts or Terminator in our game.

As I've suggested earlier the easiest way to balance SB with the other weapons is to increase their Req to 30 at least.

Keeping the combi-weapon's RoF under the new rules as 4 makes them a bit more attractive, and the melta version in particular is pretty attractive anyway. But they are multi-role weapons, and do struggle head-to-head with the SB. The melta version is a good choice, but the other two are pretty much junk.

Dropping the price of the combi weapons to 10 or 12 would make them more worthwhile, too. The combi-plasma needs to have more than 1 shot as well, because it has a s/2 RoF, but can only fire one of those. A magazine of two for the weapon would make it worth considering.

Storm bolters should not have a Req of 30, as it is then outside the wargear price reach, and they are not that grossly better than meltaguns or plasma guns.

I think its very fluffy in a way, when Storm bolters are preferred. If we look at fluff in general Storm bolters are the standard arm of Terminators and the standard support weapon for Rhinos, Razorbacks, Land Raiders and Drop Pods. Sisters lug them along as special weapons.

Combi-weapons, on the other hand, seem to be favored by basically no-one in general. They are special weapons for specials men in special circumstances, not general all-around goodness like Storm bolters. In this context I think its all good if players pick combi-weapons rarely.

Siranui said:

It's only out of Signature Wargear price reach, not Signature Wargear (Master) at Rank 2. A SB should be worth 1500 xp. I think it doesn't qualify a weapon as elite equipment if you can get a permanent one at Rank 1 or requisition one for every mission, which is possible by the low cost of Req 20.

Req is not relevant when talking about how elite they are. That's what renown is for.

Many excellent bits of kit are nicely and deliberately priced at 20Req clearly to put them in the price bracket of wargear, and to allow a mastercrafted version to be purchased as master wargear: Powersword, plasmagun, meltagun, HB, chameoline, motion tracker, combat shield, etc etc. Putting the premier non-heavy bolter outside of the grasp of tactical marines seems like kicking them repeatedly in the face. Especially when it's blatantly not the problem that it once was as regards balance.

As I mentioned earlier, if it wasn't for a crazy Sculptor in the 90's SB would still be in the hands of Terminators alone. In the TT I havn't noticed how strange a SB looks if you use it as a rifle because most weapons are wielded single-handly. With the advent of the RT RPG were Basic Weapons need 2 hands unless you use recoil gloves the idea of the SB became rather silly. How do you grab this **** thing? This isn't an issue for power armoured SM in DW, but I still feel bigger guns belong in bigger hands (Terminators).

Kain McDogal said:

Marines don't use the bolters as "rifles" either... The weapon has no stock, so you can't really aim it by supporting it to shoulder. In effect, they use even the regular bolter a bit like like it was a pistol in weaver-stance.

How do you guys feel about dropping Combi-Bolter renown requirements to Uninitiated?

Alex

Not keen. Firstly it only fixes the 'problem' (them being sub-par compared to other stuff) for about 5% of the game, and then the players go back to ignoring them. Secondly, it's not in line with canon; where combi-weapons are supposed to be cool and special wargear... more cool and special than meltaguns supposedly.

Siranui said:

Yeah but fixes the 5% of the game which has a profound lack of options. From a gaming pov, you increase the range greatly by unlocking one piece of gear. And you still are motivated to climb the ranks because they are one-shot weapons.

As for canon, well, suppose the DW happens to have combi-weapons in abundance, it being part of their trademark. Think of combi-melta sternguards with specialty bolt ammo. They are ubiquitous

Alex

ak-73 said:

I wouldn't mind dropping it, though I agree with Siranui that it hardly follows canon. But then again, playing DW you are already above a normal grunt marine.

Unfortunately it will stoll not help our current campaign, as they are already Respected close to Distinguished. But a good idea

I wouldn't *mind* doing it, but I don't see that it really fixes anything.

I also kind of like the dry patch for weaponry at starting renown. It makes players take other misc. kit that they otherwise wouldn't. And then they realise the value of said kit and start using it regularly. It basically gets people to experiment, instead of loading up with MOAR GUNZ, right from the start.

I can kind of feel the pain of this one. I normally field an apothocary and pick up tech-use to help in some of my tasks. In a recent game, while everyone else was loading up on storm bolters and power weapons, I was lugging multi-tools, extra meds, and other odds and ends because no one else wanted to waste their points by taking them.

I think the reason the storm bolter is such a 'good weapon' is because of how the weapon deals damage against hordes. Because of how ammunition works, the weapon is capable of blasting chunks out of a horde. Against a single target or armored vehicle, I think the difference is less pronounced.

foxalpha said:

I'd say that your kill-team agrees on a pool of req from which such general benefit items are bought. The way you describe it, where the rest are playing a chicken game with you and you chicken out and request the stuff from your points so that there isn't a fatal collision, so-to-speak. Not fair of the others.

Alex

It is less of a game of chicken and more a game of they don't have anything but combat skills. 90% of the time, they feel like having brute force on their side means they will at least survive.

Meanwhile I am trying to open doors, heal wounds, establish communications, ect...

I think it has more to do with differences in playstyle.

Remove storm's effect on hordes, it doesn't make sense anyway.

Have the attached weapon of a combi-bolter count as exceptional, or drop requisition to 10.

Maybe increase clip size to 2 for the flamer and 3 for the plasma? That probably wouldn't mix well with the rest though.

I think increasing the Combi-Plasma's clip size to 3 would probably help a lot since then you could get the extra range, penetration and 1d10 damage from firing in Maximal Mode. IMO Combi-weapons are more about flexibility than all-out killing power. If you're GMing, nothing makes your players appreciate even a single extra melta or plasma shot than a renegade Chimera.

Wait a second... don't you have in 40K a full round of fire with combi-weapons? That is Rapid Fire with Plasma?

Alex

Correct. Clip size is 1. Whack, huh?

Dropping the price by 10 is a bit absurd, because then a combi-bolter costs the same as a normal bolter.

Mag of 1 works nicely for meltaguns, but not for the others. 3 shots for flamer would be much better, and probably 4 for plasma; giving either two rounds of normal shooting or a maximum power shot. Maybe 6 is more reasonable, given the '4 full' reload time and giving either 3 rounds of semi fire or two maximum power shots.

I meant dropping the price to ten req, not by ten req.

Other then that I agree with you.

I have already adopted the houserule that Storm will not inflict double hits on Hordes.

But I like the idea of giving the Combi-weapon around a clip of 3. I think that might encourage players more, as even flamers are very deadly with 3 shots, and good against hordes, and the melta and plasma weapons can also become more deadly ünder the right circumstances.

Maelflux said:

I think with a mag of 3, lots of people will rather pick the combi-bolter than a meltagun, etc. Maybe 2 shots or a turn at max ROF for clip size instead?

Alex

Melta probably needs keeping at 1 clip size. It's still a good choice like that. It's the other two that need the enhanced magazine capacity.