I just looked over the past 8 pages of GD Forum, and surely enough, there's no actual "Set 11 discussion" thread. I've been gone for a while because the PS3 is officially the biggest abomination to technology since anything Apple-related. Seriously, that's my excuse. Not because I was kicked out, or because I was assaulted. No. It's the PS3. It's Internet is a semi-alluring gimmick that doesn't work.

SOOOOO...now that college has thankfully started up once again, I have access to an ACTUAL computer, and needless to say, being Shinji Mimura, I've got plenty of opinions to share.

One thing I've read is that...honestly, Set 11 hasn't had a lot of talk. Certain cards have come up, probably the biggest one being Charismatic. I actually haven't bought a single Set 11 product, but that's just because I'm waiting until the "second market" stocks up on more boxes of SF so I can buy 1 of each. I just have OCD in that I can't buy one set w/o the other.

So, in typical Shinji fashion, I will start with negativity first =D.

1) According to a LOT of people, Set 10 was one of the most unpopular, mal-discussed sets ever made. What a lot of people are forgetting are the legions of good cards it delivered. Heirloom, Prowess, Terry, Hanzo, Defender, Hybrid Style, Shooting Capoera, obviously the list is long. Sure, it wasn't particularly the most interesting set, but hot **** did it deliver. It brought power to Air, Chaos, Earth, and Water, easily rising A/C/W to top tier status, and Earth is certainly in the "competitive" tier. However, all these people who said, "ZOMJ Set 11 is totally better than Set 10" are really just being sheep.

2) Karaoke Idol. Kara. Oke. Idol. Why do I bring up this card? Because Karaoke Idol stands as a testament to my pluming fervor of anger. R Commit: After you play an attack, it gets +1 damage. James Hata assured us every card would be playable. Well, sure, every card is playable in that it can be played. But most certainly, he couldn't have meant "good". Under no circumstance will I flock to run Karaoke Idol. Back in the day, people ran cards like Loving Devotion and Shotokan Training because the game back then was more about attacks, and spamming countless Shadow Banishments and Overhand Throws. This game has evolved, and unlike everybody else, I happen to think this game is much BETTER. It still has Aggro, not by the same accord, but it exists, and it's much more balanced. Remember when Fire was Rick Astley tier? It was that way because NOTHING could really compete with decks like Adon that was just turn 1 build, turn 2 win. Our game isn't that way, thank God. Either way, I brought up Karaoke Idol because it isn't alone. Both sets had far too many spam cards, and in this game, every foundation counts. Although the desire is to run a multitude of foundations, most decks run 4 of everything, 3 of certain things, and only 2 of cards like Charismatic or Bitter Rivals for example. We don't need cards like Karaoke Idol. It has no place in our game. It's Pit Fighter.

3) Certain characters certainly had a power curve over others. Remy, Sogetsu, and Chun Li instantly come to mind. They are very obviously more powerful than the majority of other characters. As a fan card designer, I make sure every character is playable by usually one of two ways (possibly in combination): their character is inherently strong, or their support makes them stronger. Characters like Gaira, Terry, Dhalsim, all just trash. Your goal as a designer out to be to make every card tourney-viable by some degree, ESPECIALLY characters. Kim is the best example of this. Kim, in my opinion, joins Rikuo as one of the worst characters ever made. Why? Because Yi Shan, that's why. Yi Shan has two of his symbols, no restriction or cost to his enhance, and more vitality. WHY on EARTH would you run Kim over Yi Shan? Because of Chaos? because of his Dojang? Because of his 2nd enhance? No. You just wouldn't. Kim has been top tier in almost every SNK game he's ever been in, so my expectations were high, and weren't meant. I take it FFG employees have had some bad times with Tae Kwon Do fighters, because Chae was certainly nothing short of toilet paper.

4) Storms. Why are people nitpicking Rock Howard's Neo Raging Storm? Have you ever PLAYED KOF2006? Because if you have, you would know Rock has a 2-star doa thrashing move known as Neo Raging Storm. It wasn't a cutesy name; it was an actual attack, and honestly, it imitates its in-game move very well. As for Geese's, in Japanese, "Rising" would be spelled RA I SHI N GU, so to call it Raising Storm isn't too terribly far off. At least it wasn't something random, like "Ascending Tempest" or something like that.

That's all I can think of for now lol...

As for good things, there's plenty, as there is with every set. Tons of 3 checks, most notably, Kim's 3 check throw that actually is good lol. Elena is interesting, Sogetsu will easily act much like Ukyo (two symbols, draw and discard ability) and I'm sure will be top tier, T Hawk is actually usable, there were good things, that's for sure.

Anyways, just figured I'd bring this up to generate discussion about the set. If there's nothing to be said, alright, but I think there's a lot slipping under the radar. Deceptive Quickness, Rising Rage Flash, Kim's Neck Crunch Drop, Fire Kick, Crack Counter -> Vaulting, etc etc.

Gaira is a trash character, but Terry and Dhalsim are both actually worth using, in the fact that they have Earth and Void/Water respectively. With Terry, play a foundation, use Hugo's support to draw extra cards, Play a move, discard a 6 with his E, then pitch their hand. Character based +6 damage boost? and if you have a glare out, you can keep going giving your attacks a huge boost. Dhalsim? Dhalsim is the same way. He's basically BUILT for High Plasma Fweem. He gives it a speed boost and commits everything he can that doesn't normally commit for Fweems E.

I'm in many ways to say the least, content with the set. Like people have said before this set isn't nearly as zomg exciting as previous sets, it's just very solid but it's something that block 3 needs. There are a lot of really neat cards in this set that have tricks with cards from the previous sets, and the support is really solid. Not too many of the characters stand out (heck, I think you named all the ones that I thought were good, except Kazuki and Ralf, who are a speed boosting machine and combotastic character respectively), but it gives the sets to come and the previous block 3 sets a solid base to start from and a set where any deck you make can pick a card from here and put it in.

Also, for all the crap I just gave Gaira, Distractible is amazing, and will see 4 of in every deck I make that requires me to kill my opponent and has those symbols.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Ok Gaira i agree with, terry is cirtainly not fantastic but not quite Trash, but Dhalsim? Think of his ability defensively as well as offensively, the one in out meta can survive huge attacks just because he switches the speed and damage then gets his own attacks out then pumps speed, discards your hand and then switches the values, if he fails to discard ur hand he keeps the speed up to just hit you, its even worse that his asset isnt unique so if he does have to tap out he still has those to fall back on.

anyways, i think these sets are the best wev had since we started, and for the record i like the last set purely as it was the long awaited return of Soul Caliber and mainly Taki! =D

Theo

Oh wow, a complaint thread! How unexpected!

Oh, and water is surprisingly wet today.

MarcoPulleaux said:

dhalsim is not trash. blind prophet nuked me with him a few weeks ago. he is a charecter who can completely control the tempo of the game. also r. mika and hugo are both awesome. hugo is a 6/40 charecter with amazing drawpower. r. mika is a throw machine.

MarcoPulleaux said:

**** you, I'm now sadly trying to work out tech to make Karaoke Idol worth running in a deck (apart from the card name!).

Hmm...

• Karaoke Idol + M.Bison's Jumping Roundhouse = R-based damage pump plus E-based negation.
• Reverse Flayer + Any Attack + Karaoke Idol = Flayer doubles the damage bonus to +2... rawr!
• Matt Khols (character) + Karaoke Idol = As Idol doesn't have a block, Matt can discard it with his First F to pick up something else!

Hewittzil said:

Earth Promo Adon, +2 damage for each one. Also, it's +1 damage and then a nuke with Clean Freak, and Victor/Reanimated. I can't think of too many more...

Oh yeah, I totally forgot Hugo and R. Mika, but they also made me remember ::Alex::! He's overlooked because his big brother is so god-awesome but seriously, have you read Boomerang Raid? Or the ruling about his R how after you use it, the 2 cards you discarded and every facedown card for the rest of the turn you discard adds damage? He's going to be a sleeper-beast. Nightmare Geese + Ira Spinta, Rock Howard is sort of lame (even though he piloted me to a win at my pre-release because blocking in a pre-release is top-tier), Naks has possibility, Basara is stupid, and lastly even Billy has a chance to be awesome simply because he can generate more momentum then anyone else in the game right now (spam his momentum gen foundations, add them back to his hand, do it again).

I liked this set because it IS solid all around... nothing eye popping but most of the cards are definately playable and go along with support to thier corresponding character. I like the fact that the supers are for the most part designated to act to their fullest with their characters but still arent garbage if you pull them and are not playing that character.

My only beef with this set is the isnt that one eye-popping card that makes me want to buy boxes trying to get it (Feline, Defender, Infiltrating)

O and i love the new Alex... but the fear of losing out during a tourney due to diversity by the other version is a huge setback

*I* would and WILL run Kim at some point in time. His symbols have a solid base to work with (Chaos and Good go very nicely together). Hisfree damage pump discourages blocking. He has Dread Carnival's enhance built-in to his character. And most importantly, he's KICK SUPPORT. He has lots of fun tricks that you can work with. I've not spent any time working on him yet, so I'm not ready to play him competively, but he's a great start. My only complaint is that his rare's difficulty is a little too high to make me want to play it (I'd prefer it as a 5 or 6/2, to be honest). His support is also excellent - Good now has a damage pump with The National Tae Kwon Do Treasure and Dojang, and Swooper Kick is also quite solid (for a Kick deck, anyway).

Gaira really isn't as bad as you think. On paper, he's crap. But look a little closer - he's a sideboard character for damage reduction BS. He would stomp all over Bishamon, and probably Hugo, too. Granted he's not terribly useful otherwise, but as he has Order, he has no real handsize, so that's no issue. He surgically removes foundations that stand in your way, which isn't too bad, if you think about it. He's also a great sandbag character for dodging diversity - handy for Donovan, Sogetsu, Kyoshiro, et. al.

Terry is pretty stupidly good, if you think about it. Neo Deadly Rave. Discard a 5. 11 damage unblockable to the face. And given the amount of draw his symbols have, it's not like it will be difficult to discard stuff. He's not necessarily top tier, but he's not awful, either.

Dhalsim has been covered - he's fantastic. Lynx Tail is a 0L7 with him for committing one foundation...and there's also High Plasma Beam (good eye on that one, Quarzark).

As for Rock Howard (looking at you again, Quarzark) - he's actually very good. As the game is attempting to move more towards blocking, the mere fact that he's a character who makes blocking multiple attacks more viable means he provides a defensive advantage to his player - as we've learned from HDC's article on 2008, a strong defense is what wins games. Additionally, while his abilities are fairly simple, he has one of the most ridiculously powerful symbol combinations in the game - All/Chaos/Order.

Eye popping cards - Spinning Beat, Galactica Phantom, Sonic Boom EXTRA, Neo Raging Storm.

Cards no-one is talking about but really ought to be - Gift From a Friend, Double Reppuken (Geese), Come Through in the Clinch, Criminal Past, Warrior Princess, Homerun!, At a Distance, the list goes on.

(I actually came up with 24 excellent and underrated Set 11 cards - article coming soon)

late game sardine special=kill.

Naks will be busted, or more accurately her asset Father Bull will be busted, at some point. "If I reversal this, your board gets murderalized." And as far as split attack sides go, it's not completely terrible [4diff 3M3]

At a Distance is very interesting. You can use it to ensure that your turn won't end due to CC hacks or difficult cards [combine with Break Free and just lob big moves, knowing that you have enough 6ccs in the deck to pass SOME of them?], or as part of a Chaos/Order hardlock strategy with BRT/Forethought to ensure no attacks will pass and only a few foundations will come down. Too bad it doesn't share a symbol with Akuma... or wait, that's probably a good thing.

Back in the day, people ran cards like Loving Devotion and Shotokan Training because the game back then was more about attacks, and spamming countless Shadow Banishments and Overhand Throws. This game has evolved, and unlike everybody else, I happen to think this game is much BETTER. It still has Aggro, not by the same accord, but it exists, and it's much more balanced. Remember when Fire was Rick Astley tier? It was that way because NOTHING could really compete with decks like Adon that was just turn 1 build, turn 2 win.

Wait, what? of all the thing's you've said...

People ran those cards because there were so few foundations with non-godawful stats. No, really. Count the 1 difficulty Void and Earth foundations in sets 1-3. Do it, right now, and get back to me on why people ran Shotokan Training.

Loving Devotion purely gets away with being a 0/6. Do you really think people played it for the Enhance, other than incidentally because they were running it for the stats anyway?

Fire was top tier? News to me, considering Void, Death, and All could pass one 4 difficulty control check and win the game instantly against any Fire deck pre set 4 (and it only stopped being autoloss after set 4 due to Getting an Education, 8th Bill of Punishment, and Challenge the Master...). Or, for that matter, any player smart enough to keep more than one, MAYBE two blocks for that 2nd turn from Adon... which seemed to be the norm, but hey, those weren't the people winning tournaments.

edit: and just to throw this out there: no, aggro sucks right now. It doesn't exist by a more balanced accord, it's just bad.

Aggro sucks for the most part, but I see Elena and Alex, maybe Dhalsim to some extent, being the current aggro standards until the next set is released (at which point of course we'll have to look and see what happens).

Any character with Water can become a solid, cheap aggro or hybrid character. Sogetsu's discard/draw, Mika's damage pump, Dhalsim's speed pump, Wingless Aeroplane, Lunar Slash, Cluster Bomb, Fweem? The two main commital offenders, shooting cap, and battle prowess + rejection round out any Water aggro deck with enough survival and control to get out of a lot of sticky situations. That's without hitting anything past a rare (and a good one at that) and hell, 4 characters from set 11 dual-symbol Void/Water. Not to mention Remy eating 30 vitality characters whole turn 2-3.

Also, I think Tag sort of missed a transition turn of phrase, and was talking about the set 6 to set 8 era, also know as the Age of the Hammer. or when penetrating lunge wasn't banned.

I think we're seeing the slow revitalization (no pun intended) of Aggro as a whole. Not a hybrid deck that can aggro out, but the old school 20 attack, 30 foundations, 10 cards that do stuff to help kill you faster decks.

Balrog is not to be underestimated.

quarzark said:

oh, you mean the EVIL (read: Not Aggro) decks that were abusing the Hammer during that timeframe, with the occasional Fire deck lucking out a turn 1/2 KO.

It was pre-errata Matt Kohls that was the tier 1 juggernaut fire deck that got Penetrating Lunge the ban it deserved. Not Adon.

AKA the Rise of Evil time period, when Evil was starting to invade prior to getting the tools to handle basically the entire field singlehandedly in set 8, and the nail in the coffin was the rotation of block 1's tools?

Tagrineth said:

Yep, said deck also won the 2007 Canadian Nationals. Not that anyone cares, but if you were wondering...

Adon was still a beast, however.

Before Rejection came out, I saw a hell of a lot more Fire than Evil decks. Fire's attack lineup was just leagues better, and Defender of the Empire was around for a while in there too. Evil had Kunai+Chain Throw, Suzaku, Infiltrating, pile of mid-zone attacks with generally low block modifiers [ie Unrequited Love = no help]? Compared to Glass Slippers, Sakura Air Combo, Widowmaker, Moonbeam, Clones, Flowing Gale Hook, 8th Bill... I recall reading a tournament report with IIRC a Dhalsim vs Elena matchup, and Dhalsim basically requited T1 Yoga, huge lucksack or lose.

I don't see pre-set 8 as the rising action to Set 8's climax of Addes/BRT/Lotus at all. Fire was faster and at least as consistent in coinflip games, even if it didn't many tools to beat control (TYPFG made Yoga beatable, if not easily)

^But the real star of that event was the Bison deck that came in second. I don't suppose anyone archived KnightSpirit's huge decklist/explanation post, or his accompanying series of strategy articles, from the STG forums? They were good reads...

Edit #2: This thread is so perfect for a discussion of the metagame circa 2007 it's not funny.

Tagrineth said:

yeah, that was the only time I can think of Fire being high-tier. And it reminds me of me and my friend playing roughly 25 games in half an hour between Fireball Kohls and Fireball Iori, going back and forth. Basically whoever went first won, although there were the occasional winging it FTKs. Same time period though.

Wafflecopter said:

o.O orlly? Hehe... I saved one of his articles that discussed some card playing theorems. I kind of absorbed everything that I needed to from his M. Bison decklist, its explanation, and other articles. The concept of an ultimate (UFS) deck as he defined it was and still is very interesting to me.

Ummm Folks we're starting to drift dangerously off topic here.........

That's not cool.

P.S So not liking it that shinj's back is anyone else? Seriously?

ctr2yellowbird said:

I am of the opinion that, while KnightSpirit was a good player and a good deck builder, his Bison deck was more an exercise in self absorbtion and theorem development/ego stroking.

He played it well, and it was a deck list arguably ahead of its time, but it was full of exploitable holes and the reality of it all is that his deck's win condition relied on a teetering edge of 2 or 3 interactions while he tried to drown untrained eyes with a massive list of them when only a handful of them really made a difference

It was a neat deck, but it was slow as molasses and full of tricks that could have been trimmed to make it more efficient in the long run.

Archimedes said:

It also didn't help that his opponents (and I know from watching a couple of matches) :

1) Didn't know what to do with the deck
2) In one case, were on the caffene crash to end ALL caffene crashes (srs 6 Red Bulls and 13 coffees over the course of two days of no sleep was so much of a wreck when we went out for sushi afterwards he almost bailed) so the things weren't processed

So yeah - I'm not saying the deck wasn't strong - it was. However, it's not the be-all end-all deck that it is touted to be.

This may be true, as I was a scrub when I was reading about it and scrubs always drink the Kool-Aid