I GM a party of 5 players.They are all rank 1 with 8 xp.A Troll Slayer,an Iron Breaker,an Initiate of Sigmar,a Swordmaster of Hoeth and a Waywatcher.My main problem is,if I can call it a problem ,that they are unbeatable in combat.The have slew 20 gors, 1 chaos warrior, a minotaur ,12 ungors and two Tzanagors in the same combat and only the Initiate of Sigmar has faded out at the end.

I want to know if those careers are really the best combat careers in the game.I want to throw a Dragon at them but I am quite sure they will slay him quite easy!

I feel kind of desperate.Any thoughts?

MoonShadow said:

I think you've left out some possibilities as a GM. My Party (Rank1) would only survive this if they would flee as a rabbit.

That does look like a very strong combat party. Instead of going for just brute force, you might want to include special attacks which inflict criticals and conditions on your party. The slackfungus bombz from tGS, for example will weaken them up, and can be fired from a distance, and poisoned weapons can fatigue them (but really you can design whatever poison you like), ambushing can work to get the PCs unprepared and you can strike at the weakest members. Terror causing things will also give them problems. And as you don't have a wizard, a decent enemy shaman should be able to affect them, maybe choose sneaky and creative spells rather than blast ones.

I find against a big organised party, lots of small things are often more effective than a few big things. Definitely intelligent cunning foes with some special attacks and equipment at their disposal is probably your best bet, like goblins or skaven.

I have a strong 4th and 5th rank combat monster party but managed to kill one of them, ambushing them with a small party of goblin scouts riding giant spiders.

Yes,I will use goblins as they are travelling in a swamp.Maybe the swamp terrain and a quickmire will do the job.How many goblins and snottlingsdo you suggest I should use?May I use the henchmen rules for them?

Remember to use action cards. Immobilizing shot, knockback shot, shield bash. Use tactical cards to make it harder for them.

If they're going through a swamp then you can invent a specific swamp goblin tribe that can use the terrain to their advantage. Have a couple of Swamp Trolls (ie river trolls) just standing there fishing, attracting the PCs attention, and while they prepare to ambush the trolls, you can ambush the PCs. Have snotlings creeping through the undergrowth with fungus bombs that they can throw at them, which require an Average Resilience check or they become 'Overwhelmed.' Have poison (made from a special swamp plant) on all their arrows and blades. Have spiny swamp fish that lie on the swamp beds that if you step on them you need a difficult resilience check or you suffer -1 Str (or something). Heck, have the snotlings throw the spiny swamp fish at the PCs. Give the Goblins lots of white dice for ambushing coz they're in their element. Have a couple more swamp trolls lying on the swamp beds unseen (coz swamp trolls can hold their breath for several hours) that can just erupt from the water and attack whenever a PC goes near. Because of their diet of spiny swamp fish you can give the troll vomit extra potency. Life is tough in the swamp and the greenskins need to be disciplined and cunning to survive.

Also, you can give the PCs Misfortune if they don't have swamp experience. If they're in particularly boggy bits, you can give then one black die for physical actions for each point of armour, say. Warn them before hand so they can choose how armoured they want to be.

There's a thousand things you can do, it just depends on how mean you want to be.

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to say to Monkeylite that... that was a great example of the strength and flexibility of the system, there are some discussions over on the RPG.Net forums about 3e, and I just wish some of the posters there could read that, as I think you would sell them the game.

All the best

Mike

CharlieBananas said:

I'm banned from RPGnet

It doesn't take a lot!

monkeylite said:

Is it because you were overtly positive about 3rd ed? I hear it's quite wildly hated over there....

Sausageman said:

No, it was nothing to do with RPGs, and ages ago.

/threadjack

Really great feedback, Monkeylite! You've even given me a few ideas the next time I run a swamp encounter! Thanks!

Thank you very much!

Your ideas are inspiring!I think that they will be surprised!

Monkeylite's advice has the superior quality :-) so you should add a fortune die to all your NPC tests accordingly.

Some other stuff you can do with a strong party (that are probably running at 2 Intelligence and Fellowship) is to present them with mental or social challenges. Swamps can be VERY disorienting and it doesn't take much to get lost so add in some navigation type challenges (increasing in difficulty for each botched attempt or presence of a c-star). It is also more difficult to camp (ie rest and regain wounds), and find food and water (swamps are great biological filters but are pretty close in composition to a primary or secondary clarifier at a sewage treatment plant...so....like dont get it in any cuts or drink it : ). ~I got swampy feeeva~ (okay singing on a forum post doesn't really work well).

Swamps are full of really aweful and annoying insects in real life...fantasy swamps are worse. The amount of sticky stinky peaty yuck, coupled with buzzing horse-sized flies is going to make even the most talented outdoorsmen/women hate life and not sleep well. Add a couple dozen itchy or burny insect bites to the players (insect swarms ftw) and see how much they like their vacation in the swamps.

I also like to provide ways for any party to make their lives easier if they can manage to roleplay well or build characters with the proper allotment of non-combat skills (granted this advice is coming from older editions and other games but the general concept remains valid). Given the passive environmental dangers of the swamp you could have some very burly, knowledgable and grumpy swamp folk that ply the waters and are experienced at dealing with the terrors of the swamp. If the PC's can pull out some high quality fellowship related mojo they could actually gain a guide or a place of relative safety for when they come down with disentary. If they (as non humans it's going to be tough as heck) boff all their interactions with swamp-folk then they might find an additional probelm to deal with in the swamp as Jethro and his nine inbred brothers arrive at the wrong time to make the party yell like swine.

Essentially a swamp should beat the players down on all fronts, and impress upon them the idea that perhaps they should consider themselves lucky that they come through the other end in good enough condition that they can flex their buldging muscles back in Stromdorf.

Great advice as well, Callidon! The swamp is an "enemy" all by itself and one that the heroes can't defeat with their swords and axes. There's a reason swamplands are classically regarded as breeding grounds for evil spirits, monsters and witchcraft...they are miserable places that are best avoided by God-fearing folk.

All very strong advice I have to say. I agree that the system is way more flexible and excellent than lots of other systems and that the naysayers are the ones loosing out by not giving it a try. I feel that the chits n' bits can be dealt with in a multitude of ways that can make them speed up play rather than bog it down as many people claim. I'm all for throwing challenges at my Players that fall outside their areas of strength. It was really humorous to see the look on my Elven Hunter player's face when he got into his first combat where the enemies shot back at him. He thought he was invincible because up to that point he had only faced Melee focused Beastmen and other Beasts that were sorely lacking in strategies or missile weapons. I also find that the disease rules are a fantastic addition to the game and I try to work in disease causing events into all the games I play.

Keep your eyes on RDP episode 10 is being recorded tonight! We are going to be discussing Insanity, Disease and Mutation, all things that can have a combat focused party running for their lives..... or dying

Make sure you use action cards for the NPCs. Also, don't forget / feel free to use the A/C/E dice. It's a good way to adjust an enemy's difficulty to add or remove these dice. If the PCs seem to be a little too strong, give the NPCs more A/C/E dice. Then, add those dice into the NPC defense, or into the NPC offense. For example, rather than having a single type of NPC pooling their A/C/E, allow each monster to have their own A/C/E pool and cards. Yes, it's more for you to keep track of, but it makes the monsters more difficult. Also, don't forget to give your NPCs actual equipment. In general, most humanoids have a lower default value for DR and Soak than they would appropriately equipped with a hand weapon and chainmail, for example. Give that troll a 2-handed weapon, give those goblins hand weapons or spears, and use the DR & soak of that equipment rather than the default.

Feel free to make a Chaos Warrior (or other "big" baddie) unique and different from the default in the book. Increase stats, or give him special Chaos Armor, which has an exceptionally high Defense and soak, etc. Give him a daemon sword with some special properties, like it inflicts a fatigue point for every point of damage it does, or it has a CR of 1, something nasty like that.

Use terrain and have the enemies surprise/ambush the party, giving the NPCs a free round of attacks. Enemies can flee and lead the group into some traps, etc.

Lastly, I'd suggest that you try to use fewer combats. The group is obviously geared towards combat. Throw more social situations and social encounters, and hit the group in their weak point.

Two words: NO HENCHMEN

Grouping like monsters has been the single biggest folly of my combats and why our commoner/trollslayer/swordmaster/thief have mopped up with ease. Characters who are outnumbered by ATTACKS not just attackers face more of a challenge.

jh

Hi,

Couldnt agree more with Emirikol. Henchman in my humble opinion are pointless if you want a challenging (scary) combat. You describe a large group of nasty beasties, one or two high damage rolls later and they're all dropping like flies.

Lots of great advice already been given, but to add... Do you use your baddies tactically? Because in your example the NPCs outnumber the PCs by a huge margin, spare monsters could be covering other strategic plot objectives, or just shooting at them/throwing flasks of oil, etc. As Dvang mentioned, change the kit. Lots of 2H weapons against dwarfs, use entangling weapons if the NPCs have superior numbers.

Please have a good read through some of the support cards available, get creatures guide/vaults for more ideas. Adding a lesser demon to a posse of bad uns can screw up a combat happy crew really quick. Hide the demon, then Chaos Incarnate for a suprise (most demons should get the full effect) all the players take two misfortune dice to all tests, then you can let them roll their fear tests... if its the setting of a swamp, make it nurgle based, chuck some disease action cards around. Lastly have some nurglings swimming beneath the surface of the swamp with a tricky Obs test to avoid being suprised as they start crawling up your trouser leg! Presumably this combat heavy party does have some weaknesses in Int and WP attributes? Exploit them till they get stress induced migraines.

Insanity, disease and mutation-the warhammer way...

i would also second the comment about large groups. A smaller number of more capable baddies is more dangerous, easier for you the GM to manage, and should any of them escape they provide more interesting recurring foes.

Hope that helps...

In our last session I had three cultists use guarded position, while their leader and fethered fiends attacked. Those extra black dice helped a bit.

Now I have a very similar party, Iron Breaker, Wardancer, Priest of Sigmar... and a Mystic (she just loves her Guarded Position). When we did character gen for the 4th iteration of the campaign I let them pick starting careers. Anyway, they are pretty hard in combat as the Tank... I mean Iron Breaker sings the song of Grungi and the others all cluster around her.

Last night we found out the Skaven tend to work really well against this, what with their attacks piling on Fatigue, lots and lots and lots of Fatigue. To the point the Dwarf had to stop chanting so they'd stop hitting her.

The best bit was they still survived, one KO'd and three just about to pass out but they made it and everyone was happy. All is good.

Thank you all !Great ideas!I have already made up an encounter with more intelligent tactics than before.The battle will happen in the marshes and the enemy will try to ambush the party.

I will use 25 goblins,15 snottlings with slings and fungus bombs as well as a goblin shaman mounted on a giant spider.I will not use henchmen rules.

The party will consist of an Ironbreaker,an Initiate of Sigmar,a Roadwarden,a Trollslayer and a Thief with a Longbow.All of them have spent 8 xp to buy advances.There will also be 5 soldiers with them.I don't want to kill them, just to make two or three of them faint.

Do you thing that this challenge is too much for them?

MoonShadow said:

Should the party drop the NPCs too quick have a few in each engagement use guarded position. You can easily add 5 black dice to their pools that way. While they are engaged with some, have others disengage and use ranged attacks.

Lots of good advice already given about things such as "make sure to use ACE budget", "make sure to have NPC's use basic defensive actions" (and I give starring NPC's at least one improved dodge or parry card), have NPC's use "guarded position" (e.g., the vampire has minions doing just that round it) etc. Also have NPC's "aid another" - one foes standing toe to toe, use maneouvre to give buddy a fortune die etc.

In my case, my party is more balanced but there are some "ferocious combat" types - an elf waywatcher. However, effects that target Willpower such as Fear and Terror are great, as well as Fatigue (make them have to run to get across the open ground where they take damage from incoming fire etc.).

I find the "multiple economies" of warharmmar are great - Wounds, Fatigue, Stress (Criticals, Madnesses, Diseases, Corruption) - for creating threats along different vectors so that no one is a complete tank.

If they need tougher foes, some of the greater daemons etc. are for higher parties, the "add a challenge die to all attacks targeting them" quality making them just "generically tougher".

Also hunt a bit for actions to give NPC's that are "straight wound dealers" rather than "damage to be soaked" dealer - such as Plague Mass (which you can also just use as a basis for a nasty environmental condition), Boneripper (which is nice, automatic critical on hit never mind Soak period, nice rat ogre we likes it), Dangerous When Cornered (2 boons = 2 wounds to all engaged enemies)

Assuming Fellowship scores are not the highest, unavoidable social encounters are also good. Nobles, Witchhunters, well armed large groups you have to negotiate with etc. If the party relies on one Face-character with high Fellowship to cover off for all the lower ones, in extended social encounters where one PC does all the talking, I make them take # of misforturne dice equal to difference between their Fellowship and lowest one in group. I don't to this for a simple chat up gate guard but if it's lunch with nobleman, however charming that Fel 6 PC is, having a Fel 2 burbing and inopportune joke making companion along is going to hurt.

I have a 'strong party' too. Here are some of the tactics I've used to challenge them:

I've found that even the strongest parties have a weakness. Fatigue and Stress. Slayers and other combat focused characters tend to focus on physical attributes. This gives them a high threshold for fatigue. Unfortunately, they also tend to be reckless in combat which balances things out. There are some creatures, attacks, and/or circumstances that cause fatigue. If you employ them correctly, you'll first start seeing your combat heavy PCs back off to 'Assess the Situation'. Next, you'll see them begin to back off of the reckless meter toward a more conservative stance. It only takes a few rounds of combat to trigger this effect. Creating encounters with 'waves' of creatures keeps them from charging in headlong and slaying everything too quickly.

Stress is more of a problem for combat focused characters. Supernatural creatures (for example) can cause stress. Other attacks and circumstances can also cause stress. There's nothing more satisfying for a GM, or frustrating for a player, than to see a Troll Slayer faint. Again, if you're doing it right, you'll see you players backing off to 'Assess the Situation' and doing other actions to reduce their stress levels.

Critical hits are the bane of melee characters, particularly with the new 'sever wound' cards. Special effects and attacks that generate crits not only cause player debuffs, but also have a psychological element since they know it can kill them if they stack too many. A few critical hits force players to evaluate things a little more carefully before engaging. I find that when my party is wounded, they spend a little more time planning.

Remember, what's good for the party is good for their opponents. Give them armor and items beyond the default. Give those Gors a better armor. Arm them with weapons that do more damage or have special effects (like better crit chances). The creature listings are for basic equipment (unless otherwise stated). Don't be afraid to beef up their load-out. Give them shields for block reactions. Focus on survivability instead of damage. Worst case, you can increase their wounds a bit, though if you have to do that too much you should probably be considering a stronger class of creature. If you're having problems penetrating that Iron Breaker's armor, stop trying. Work on living longer (through armor, toughness, dodges, blocks, parry, etc) and pick them apart using the 'minimum 1 wound' rule. Gang up for gang up bonuses.

Announcing an NPC as a caster is the same as painting a target on him. Consider concealing casters in the ranks or putting them at longer range. Use the casters to buff the melee monsters or debuff the players. They won't last long once they start casting, but there are some lasting effects available that could strengthen the encounter. Look through the monster spells - there's some great stuff.

Archers are killers. Having a strong melee front line backed up by groups of archers and/or a caster is deadly. I break my archers up into small groups and spread them out, that way they have to split up to chase them down. I will also have archers retreat. The party chases one group will other groups fire on them. It can be very challenging. Spend monster bonus dice to manouver ranged monsters around. This forces the players to suffer unanswered attacks or spend fatigue to chase them around.

Ambushes can be very deadly. Having missile fire, spells, and melee attacks coming from different areas and directions on the board forces the party to make decisions. Whichever direction the go, their leaving someone behind them pestering them.

I spend time designing my encounters. When I activate them, I know what my creatures will do and I have a plan for how they will react. Are the monsters surprised? Spend a round to buff and manouver. Did they ambush? They start buffed and engage from a favorable location and configuration.

Don't forget the '1 wound minimum' on a successful attack. Even Iron Breakers and Slayers can be worn down in prolonged engagements or when being harassed by ranged opponents.

TL;DR

• If your party is beating up your encounters, try tweaking the design. Prepare encounters ahead of time.
• Study the creature abilities and spells, and find effects that stack and compliment.
• Focus on survivability by changing monster equipment and draw the combats out to wear the party down with stress, fatigue, and 'minimum one wound' attacks.
• Use archers and deploy them in small, spread out groups.
• Use casters for more than direct damage.