Ok, I bought the core box a week ago, and I want to make sure I understand things correctly:

1. For combat, when generating a pool of dice to attack, its: the characteristic dice, plus any dice changed over from characteristic to stance, pus yellow dice for skill training, plus a white fortune die if there is an applicable specialty; for a standard attack, it also adds one challenge die. Then you add additional challenge dice equal to the target's defense, and if the target uses a defense such as Parry, that then adds misfortune dice.

Is that correct? If so... Defense comes from armor, right? So for the character's "active defenses," it's things like Parry, and it adds misfortune dice, right?

If so, I find that a bit odd, considering that for opposed checks, it adds challenge dice based on the comparison of attributes, but for combat the target's opposing attribute isn't taken into account, correct?

2. For Stealth, the sneaking character just rolls his characteristic and stance dice, plus the yellow skill dice, with challenge dice as calculated by comparing attributes as per the opposed roll rules, yes?

Actually, you've got a few mistakes in there. Let's see if I can help (I'm not a pro at this so someone else might come along with a better/more accurate explanation):

1. Generating a Dice Pool for Combat

First, you take a number of blue characteristic dice equal to the characteristic being tested. Then you add a number of red or green stance dice equal to the character's depth in their stance tracker, while removing the same number of blue characteristic dice.

Second, you add a number of yellow expertise dice equal to the character's ranks of training in the skill being tested.

Third, you add any white fortune dice to the pool. This happens for various reasons: a talent card, a specialization, spending fortune points, or at the GM's discretion (for good roleplaying, or perhaps a tactical advantage such as being on elevated terrain).

Fourth, you add 1 purple challenge die. This is the default difficulty for all action cards that read "vs Target Defense". You do not add any additional purple challenge die for the target's defense.

Fifth, you add black misfortune dice equal to the target's defense (not purple challenge dice as you had written). Defense comes from armor, reaction cards like dodge and parry, and other sources such as talent cards or a monster's A/C/E pool.

A) Some action cards have purple/black dice symbols on them. These are added to the pool in addition to the default of 1 challenge die when using cards with the "vs Target Defense" requirement.

B) Some cards don't say "vs Target Defense" or "vs X skill". If the card just lists a skill, for example "Piety (WP)", then the difficulty is zero, and you don't add any challenge dice to the roll.

For example, a Trollslayer with Strength 5, 2 ranks of Weapon Skill trained, a specialization in great axes, and who is currently 3-deep in the reckless stance makes a basic Melee Strike against an Orc. The Trollslayer's player takes 5 blue characteristic dice and then removes 2 of them while adding 3 red reckless stance dice (or to speed it up just take 2 blue and 3 red, but newer players may want to go through all the steps so they fully understand how the dice pool mechanic works). Now the Trollslayer player adds 2 yellow expertise dice for Weapon Skill being trained twice, and 1 white fortune die for his weapon specialization. Finally, he spends 1 fortune point to add a second white fortune die to his pool.

The GM adds 1 purple challenge die - the default for all "vs Target Defense" action cards - and then adds 2 black misfortune dice to the pool from the Orc's allotment of A/C/E.

The dice pool in this example =

x2 characteristic dice, x3 reckless stance dice, x2 expertise dice, x2 fortune dice, x1 challenge die, and x2 black misfortune dice.

You are correct that the target's opposing attribute isn't taken into effect.

2. Stealth

Your example for a Stealth roll is correct. However, the GM may add fortune or misfortune dice to the roll depending on the circumstances, or the player may spend some fortune points to help them succeed. This is quite common, at least for our group where the GM liberally sprinkles in a few black or white dice for good roleplaying or environmental conditions, which I feel helps bridge the gap between simply narrating the world and reflecting that description in the game's mechanics.

Does all of that make sense? I realize this looks long and complicated, but that's only in writing. In practice it takes about 5 seconds and is quite intuitive.

that was really helpful! My friend and I went through my new copy and did combat wrong i see!

Yipe said:

Ok, so I was about to do defense dice wrong, thanks for the catch!

As for Stealth and Observation... hm.... I'm confused on this. If I have a wood elf waywatcher wanting to sneak into a good position to use Bullseye (an action card) on a currently-unsuspecting sentry, would the Elf roll Stealth opposed by the target's Observation, and THEN the target rolls their Observation opposed by the Elf's Stealth? I initially was thinking that it would just be the player rolling, with the challenge dice representing the opponent's effort, but then I noticed on Bullseye that if the archer in question, while currently undetected, gets a couple of boons (I actually don't have the card in front of me this second, so I don't recall exactly what the trigger is, but it isn't important for this question), then the target gets two misfortune dice on their observation checks to locate the archer in question while the card is recharging.

So, I guess I'm wondering when, if we already have challenge dice representing the opponent's effort, why do both sides have to roll? It feels like a duplication of effort, but again, maybe I'm misinterpreting something?

Which brings me to another question and, as I'm assuming you probably aren't the game designers, you don't know, so I suspect this question is more rhetorical, but why does combat not use the opposed roll system of adding challenge dice? If it's to allow for dice from defense instead, I'm cool with that, but then, why have those add in misfortune dice instead, while in opposed rolls they add challenge dice? Seems to me an inconsistent decision, unless there is some play balance reason I'm missing, or because they want combat weighted somewhat towards the aggressor and therefore use the less-likely misfortune dice to weigh towards aggressive combat?

Anyway. Thanks!

Actions, generally in WFRP, are asymmetrical, ie player-oriented. So do stuff from the PCs' point of view. If a PC is trying to sneak past a goblin, then have the PC roll his stealth opposed by the goblin's Observation. If the goblin is sneaking, then have the PC roll his Observation opposed by the goblin's stealth. So, I can see your point re that card. Just change the dice to fortune for the guy's stealth. (Black and white dice are one of the few symmetrical elements of the system.)

Fwiw, I do play Opposed rolls vs. defense in combat (provided the opponent is in a position to oppose) and it works great for us. This is actually covered by a couple of sentences in the combat rules (don't recall the page number).

If I have a wood elf waywatcher wanting to sneak into a good position to use Bullseye (an action card) on a currently-unsuspecting sentry, would the Elf roll Stealth opposed by the target's Observation, and THEN the target rolls their Observation opposed by the Elf's Stealth?

No, usually it is only the DOER that makes the roll. So, the Elf would make the Stealth vs Observation roll, and if he passes he isn't seen. It might be possible later, however, for the GM to choose to either have the PC make a second Stealth roll ... or possibly allowing an NPC to make an Observation vs Stealth. Generally, however, as Monkeylite suggests, the rolls are PC-centric and the GM should have the PC make the roll. Whoever makes rolls generally has the advantage. So, generic NPC guards would typically have the PC roll. If a "boss" NPC arrives later, it wouldn't be too out of line for GM to have the boss make an Observation vs Stealth roll to spot the PC... although it's fine to still have the PC roll vs the boss too. Regardless, the addition of new NPCs should typically generate a new roll.

...but why does combat not use the opposed roll system of adding challenge dice?...

It can, as the rules say that the GM may essentially decide to have any test be any difficulty they want. It is simpler, however, to have general combat be a default value. It's a lot easier for players to make their combat dice pools if they already know the difficulty (barring GM input). I know a lot of people on the boards here, though, have standard combat be an opposed check. It's a little bit more complicated to do it that way, since you then need to figure out and compare the two stats, but this does typically increase the difficulty of attacks slightly and is perhaps more "realistic".

Keep in mind that Defense is not about the opponent's defensive ability; it is about the person's armor. Defense (misfortune) dice come from the type of armor they are wearing. Additional misfortune dice can get added to the pool for various reasons, but aren't actually considered Defense dice (not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things).

I think that the default 1d works fine at lower ranks, but I think overall that combat as opposed checks will work better at higher ranks, or at least vs "boss" or "elite" type monsters. The one thing to keep in mind, however, is that PCs that get a 6 Strength or Agility will have 0d vs anyone with 3 or less in the relevant opposing characteristic ... so in that sort of instance you're making it easier for "min-maxers" in combat. Otherwise, difficulty will typically range from1d to 3d (with the rare 4d vs really powerful foes).

dvang said:

Yes, but again, what about that comment on the Bullseye card? It has a line for, when triggering, gives two misfortune dice on the target's observation checks. So, we come back to: The PC is trying to hide, and the target, who just got pegged by Bullseye, is trying to find him. It's easy enough, I suppose, to add 2 fortune dice to the PC rather than 2 misfortune to the NPC, but still, what's supposed to be the appropriate steps?

...but why does combat not use the opposed roll system of adding challenge dice?...

It can, as the rules say that the GM may essentially decide to have any test be any difficulty they want. It is simpler, however, to have general combat be a default value. It's a lot easier for players to make their combat dice pools if they already know the difficulty (barring GM input). I know a lot of people on the boards here, though, have standard combat be an opposed check. It's a little bit more complicated to do it that way, since you then need to figure out and compare the two stats, but this does typically increase the difficulty of attacks slightly and is perhaps more "realistic".

Keep in mind that Defense is not about the opponent's defensive ability; it is about the person's armor. Defense (misfortune) dice come from the type of armor they are wearing. Additional misfortune dice can get added to the pool for various reasons, but aren't actually considered Defense dice (not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things).

I think that the default 1d works fine at lower ranks, but I think overall that combat as opposed checks will work better at higher ranks, or at least vs "boss" or "elite" type monsters. The one thing to keep in mind, however, is that PCs that get a 6 Strength or Agility will have 0d vs anyone with 3 or less in the relevant opposing characteristic ... so in that sort of instance you're making it easier for "min-maxers" in combat. Otherwise, difficulty will typically range from1d to 3d (with the rare 4d vs really powerful foes).

Defense isn't just about the opponent's armor, it also includes things like the Dodge and Parry actions. You do make a good point, though, that high enough level stats just takes out foes with the rules as written. I wonder, what if they built the challenge dice the same way that the acting player's dice pool is built. So, for instance, the challenge dice is one per point of characteristic, etc?

Well... I guess that would make some of the more monstrous foes really scary. Meanwhile... it also occurs to me that Misfortune dice isn't as likely to stop an attack that challenge dice will, so perhaps that also adds to the grittiness of the setting.

In general, barring a Chaos Star, 2 misfortune dice are relatively comparable to 1 challenge die statistically as I recall.