Ok, so we have rules for Grey Knights coming out in Deamon Hunter, and it has to be asked "Are Grey Knights ever seconded to the Deathwatch"?

I see nothing cannonwise that says either way, and I don't as of yet have an opinion, but these are two sides I see to it-

FOR- Though their focus is the Xenos, some Xenos are aligned with the Gods of Chaos. Thus, it wouldn't be beyond reason that their might be a couple Grey Knights seconded to the Deathwatch at anytime.

AGAINST- There simply isn't enough of them, they are constantly deployed all over the Imperium as it is, and the nature of their main enemy means that they probably are never at full strength as it is.

Thoughts?

I also have seen nothing to say no...but I'd be inclined to say Grey Knights don't serve in the Deathwatch.

Creating and training a Grey Knight is incredibly expensive, tying up far more resources than a marine from any other chapter. It simply represents a better use of Imperial resources for that Grey Knight to serve as a Grey Knight than it does for him to serve as a member of the Deathwatch.

Grey knights in the deathwatch? Simple anwser : captial N, captial O!

My spidy senses tell me, however, that Deamon Hunter will have a blurb on this. Were I a betting man, I would bet that in order to encourage sales of the book, they will come up with a few examples of Grey Knights taking up the vigil.

No. Although the GKs have a Chapter number, they are not a conventional Chapter, but the militant order of the Ordo Mallius. They do not second troops to the Deathwatch, just as the SoB do not second personnel to Deathwatch.

The question is kind of like asking 'Do Navy SEALS serve in the SBS?'

Don't have any solid proof against this, but I would say no.

First, there is the Chamber Militant argument. Organizationally, the Grey Knights have a close relationship to the Ordo Malleus, and function as their Chamber Militant. The Deathwatch are similar (but per the DW core rulebook) not as close to the Ordo Xenos as their Chamber Militant. Now, it should be said that I don't apply this argument to Sisters of Battle (as I see them serving the Ecclisarchy first, and the Ordo Hereticus second). But I think the Grey Knights association with the Ordo Malleus is a bit too tight to really send anyone into the Deathwatch.

But probably my main point though, would be the secretive nature of the Grey Knights. I doubt most Space Marines have ever even heard of them (although obviously, anyone serving in the Deathwatch does not classify as "most"). Note how in many of the short stories/writings on them, Grey Knights are seen to somberly comment on how the rest of the Imperium can never know of their deeds, due to the nature of the threat they face. Organizationally, the Grey Knights are not like most other chapters, and I doubt adhere to the same oaths that bond "normal" chapters with regards to seconding marines to the Deathwatch.

Now, on the other hand, I don't think there is any reason to say that the two can't work together on some task. Just that in game terms, a Grey Knight probably should not be considered a member of the Deathwatch (and thus not have access to Deathwatch training). But otherwise, depending on how the upcoming book handles things, I don't see an issue allowing a Grey Knight PC to work alongside a kill team. Obviously, the mechanics of this should be RP'd out, but thats the fun of games like this.

Siranui said:

However, one imagines that, given the similarity in their role, US Navy SEALS and SBS soldiers have probably gone on joint training exercises a few times at the very least. Or some sort of exchange programme... Perhaps the same might apply to the Grey Knights/Deathwatch?

Don't get me wrong, my view is still that Grey Knights are unlikely to serve in the Deathwatch, but there may be scope for some interaction between the two chapters at some level.

Excelent points made by one and all, and fluffwise, I absolutely see where you are coming from.

However, like I said earlier, I could totally see FFG coming up with some justification in the book to do so. Maybe I am just naturally cynical.

Lightbringer said:

Given the rivalries and distrust between power blocks and branches of the Inquisition, the secretive nature of both organisations, together with the different area of operations of the GKs as opposed to the DW, it might have been better to ask 'Do Soviet Spetznez combat frogmen train with US Airborne Rangers?'

Baradiel said:

Totally.

I would say no, but that's the nice thing about stuff like this where it isn't specifically addressed in canon. If you want GKs in the Deathwatch, you can add them without deliberately flying in the face of the stated universe.

Siranui said:

Good point!

The only justification I could think of is if the Deathwatch encounters daemon-based activity that it knows would be better handled by an expert, and so requests the presence of a Grey Knight. Although that would not happen until they at least attempted to do something about it first.

Even that's pushing it a little with my understanding of the politics behind such a move.

I don't see Grey Knights serving in the Deathwatch but can see scope for joint operations. The latter would be rare however.

Joint operations seems considerably more likely. I think it is possible that a Grey Knight might serve with a kill team for a while without being part of the deathwatch (ie not in black armour etc) in a similar way as an inquisitor might serve with a kill team, or a deathwatch marine might serve with a group of acolytes.

One thing I would say about this is that in my experience a lot of a Grey Knight squads power comes from them being a squad. their psychic potentials augment one another and the whole squad contributes to Holocaust I think it is called. A single Grey Knight might be hampered by being just a single Grey Knight on his own

The daemon hunters book will have a section on using Grey Knights in the Deathwatch RPG. That isn't to say that they will be a members of the Deathwatch organization, but much more likely working alongside a kill team in much the same way an ascended inquisitor might.

I am curious if there will be a difference in how they are played in DH vs DW, but either way I will be picking up this book.

While Grey Knights massively benefit from their squad abilities, a single Grey Knight is still something to be reckoned with. As advisors, they're knowledgeable in the daemonic without being tempted or corrupted by it. As warriors, few can match them one-on-one for sheer daemon smiting ability.

on funny side imagine twerpknight boss moving around Erioch, then some librarian asks very unplesant question: hey is that daemon sword ? before twerpknight would be able to answer he would be torn to shreads by Deathwatch marines.

and one more thing: why deathwatch would want grey knight around ?

First, you're assuming a Grey Knight would have reason or excuse to visit Erioch. Joint operations does not have to mean hanging around each other's headquarters.

Second, you're assuming a daemon sword would be both held by the Deathwatch there *and* somewhere non-Deathwatch/Inquisition personnel could find it.

Third, Grey Knights are the experts in hunting and killing daemons amongst the Astartes. I don't see a serious argument against this.

Fighting side by side on a casual event is a possible thing but a GK leaving his loved home to join a club of "Pest Hunter" on the other side of the galaxy, to fight an enemy who is not his, to join a brotherhood that doesnt understand him not even in the slightest and which he not fully understands is simply a joke.

GK dont think like "ordinary" Marines. they live in bond of shared mind, thanks to the fact that all have psykic potential, which other marines even Librarians cant comprehend (just take Ahrimans psiker squads from "Thousand Sons" and throw at them an Ultramarine. How are they supposed to fight together).

How do you want to integrat someone like this in to a kill team. GK dont fight as descripted in the codex, they dont use ordinary tactics and the use no ordinary equipment. their genseed is the of the Emperor himself, no Apothecary knows how to regulate their bodies and keep them running. They simply don´t fit in !

More importantly it should be possible to use the Deathwatch rules to play an all Grey Knight campaign. Hopefully they allow Grey Knights to train diverse enough paths that make a party of GKs an interesting campaign.

Decessor said:

im not assuming im joking.

"Do Grey Knights serve in the Deathwatch" joint operations arent exacly same thing as serving in DW. Serving in DW mean visiting Erioch.

Second, twerpknights boss i mentioned, http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1140003&prodId=prod1160015a , his trade mark daemon sword is always with him, daemon swords are realy easy to spot by Space marine Librarian.

Third, twerpknights are now famous not for being best daemon hunters but for being ******-bags transformer wannabes with daemonswords.

boruta666 said:

Mount him on a Storm Raven for ultra-trolling?

boruta666 said:

Gotta love the East European's ability to hit the nail on the head.

Seriously, I think the idea that the GK serve anyone but Titan (thus the Emperor himself) to be odd. Joint Operations is another thing.

As for GK being too different. They are not more different than my BA librarian who relives the death of Sanguinius over and over and over and over and over and over again, like a broken record. Nobody else can understand what he's going through either.

Although Vendettar's remark about Pest Hunters was as funny as correct too...

Alex

deinol said:

I'd guess not a whole lot. With the Bolter readjustment they're not so much more fierce than regular DH characters, so I don't think we're going to get two stats for each weapon. It's a Space Marine. When you include it in DH it's going to still be a Space Marine, and the toughest guy in the room at all times.

deinol said:

There's 3 unique Grey Knight Careers in the upcoming book and they are able to use the basic Deathwatch ones too. They might even have a few specialist ranks too.

so much hate for Greyknights? I have been playing them on the table top since they existed a sole kick ass merchants

transformer wannabes? just jealously a lot of deathwatch players would love the chance to have a dreadknight (dreadnougth stats without dying first?)

Deathknight anyone ? lol

No GK would not serve in the deathwatch you forget one key thing about joint ops too,

A deathwatch marine can be corrupted however unlikely , a Greyknight cant so at the end of a joint op you may find yourself purged

I suspect we will actually see a specific Greyknight book for running GK campaigns in the end , the new TT rules give them many more careers and make them more viable, including techmarine, devastator equilivent , librarian, assualt marine equilivent, etc