Is there anything RAW stopping someone with PF 60 to burn 11 PF to make an aquisition at PF 170 for an automatic Grand Cruiser?

It just seems its a bit to easy to use the Acquiring a Starship rules quickly get yourself quite the fleet. Hell, if you're using the RAW +1PF per 100 Achievement Points over target* and stack those component bonuses as best you can you'll be getting to PF 170 within a not to far future anyway, which will then let everyone in the crew get another Grand Cruiser each every session if you're so inclined. With even more components to give you bonus achievement points spread across all these ships you'll soon be Acquisitioning Holy Terra itself.

Am I missing something or is buying new ships just way to easy?

*Yeah I know must people don't use RAW here.

Thou Shalt Not Have a Bonus Exceeding Plus Fifty-And-Ten on Any Test?

Well that mitigates the problem, though you could still burn 6 PF for one roll vs. 120 and chance it on a coinflipp.

It's just that from how the Starting PF & SP Table looks, I'd think they meant for 1 PF and 1 SP to be of equal value, but the fact that you can acquisition starships with not too much trouble sort of invalidates that.

The main limit in my eyes is the GM, who has the final say over anything the players might wish to aquire. Of course, for the interest of the game and everyones enjoyment, he has to be careful. Too much restrictions, and players will get disillusioned and the game will lose its epic character. RT is not one of those Warhammer variants where the players themselves are happy if they have a rusty knife, a trysty stub gun and a motley outfit of scavanged flak armour. But if the players aquire a vast fleet of cruisers, battlecruisers and and grand cruisers, a dozen of Imperial Guard Regiments with all the nice extras, all the arecheotech they could dream off and the use of an Adeptus Astartes chapter too boot...then the pendulum swings the other way. Not that this is impossible, mind you. A high powered RT campaign aimed at finishing with the Horne Crusades where the players are part of the major Imperial push to conquer the Koronus expanse is most definitely an option. But just as a Grand Cruiser, this is not something that should be achieved by just aquiring profit factor. Thrones can only bring you so far, just as money won't just get you an aircraft carrier in the real world. The few remaining Grand Cruisers in the Imperium are few in numbers and the result of engineering far beyond its present abilities. While they are mistrusted and often relegated to the reserves (no sense in taking a chance in one disappearing or defecting when you just need to patrol your zones and there is no major threat active), they will be activated as soon as a real threat appears and a zone or sector needs to use all the power it has at its disposal. These ships are only slightly less powerful then battleships and won;t be squandered.

So, if a GM wishes to allow his players to aquire a Grand Cruiser, I would make this an endaveour, where they have to convince the Navy by acts and diplomacy that one of those old and precious but at the moment unused ships would indeed make a proper support for the Rogue Trader in question. To allow a single roll to determine their acquisition...fine if players wish to buy ships that are reasonably 'in the market' as transports, raiders and frigates. From light cruisers up, I would say that this will be slightly more difficult. Obviously, this is just my say, and I have the luck of being part of a quite mature gaming group with implicit trust between all players and GM, so we never follow rules to stricly if we think it might detract from gaming pleasure. Other groups will differ and might follow the rules (and their loopholes) strictly. Still, I stand by my point that a GM has the final call (which by the way, is firmly in the rules) and warn against overpowering. The first campaign I GM'd was one where I allowed my players to become far, far too powerful. The moment a major ogre ambush was beaten off by a barrage of fireballs and lightning bolts without the players breaking even a sweat was an important learning moment for me. I just hope no one is offended by me voicing my opinion perhaps a bit forcefully. Everyone makes his or her campaign as they please, but I know the munchkin vibe...from the dark corners of my books it keeps tempting me with awesome Grand Cruisers blasting everything to pieces with concentrated broadsides of incandescent plasma.....soooo daaammmnnn coooooll.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

Just a thought (other than putting the GC as endeavour or other things): usually in order to 'find' a specific thing, someone must succeed at Inquiry or Commerce roll first. Maybe it can also be done? So to acquire (outside endeavour or other things) a starship (in this case a GC), the character must succeed at Inquiry (with a penalty equals to SP) first. Unfortunately this is not RAW though.

RAW, never forget to pit Misfortunes, the cumulative -10 penalty to PF tests, etc.

Lets see how this breaks down:

Avenger class Grand Cruiser costs 70SP + cost of any background package

Step 1: Determine availability of the hull

This part is quite unclear in the rules. So you can go with:

• Use the hull modifier (70+) unmodifiable for Commerce/Inquiry test.
• GM decides if hull is available
• (RAW) Since the hull is a essential component that costs 70+ SP, it has an availability of Unique

Step 2: Acquiring the hull

• Acquisition test vs hull modifier (70+) unmodifiable
• Generate complications

You now have the hull of the ship probably lying in some shipyard or dry dock.

Step 3: Getting essential components

• Check for availability (varies by component)
• Acquire the component (varies by component)

Repeat once for each of the following: Plasma Drive, Warp Drive, Void Shields, Void Shields, Geller Field, Life-Sustainer, Crew Compartments, Bridge, Sensors. (Only Availability on Table 9-35 of the core rules should be used as craftsmanship has been factored and scale doesn't make sense.)

So after 9 Availability tests and 9 Acquisition tests, you now have an unarmed ship.

Step 4: Getting guns

• Check for availability
• Acquire the component

Repeat 6 times for each weapon slot (Again only use Availability on Table 9-35)

After 15 Availability tests and 15 Acquisition tests. A lot of interesting things can happen between 15 test using the Expanded Acquisition Rule from Into the Storm.

Surely the Essential Components would come as part of the one acquisition. I'd mix it up by changing what 0SP components came with a ship if they weren't hunting for a ship with specific +SP ones, but the idea of a ship without a bridge or engine seems rather... odd, given the nature of the universe.

Errant said:

Well, it's a long way to tell "if you want a new ship, you better be rich as hell, have the luck of the devil, or play whole campaigns to get the **** thing".

Nobody told there are some indebted Rogue Traders out there whose debts you can buy and claim the ship. You would be earning an enemy, of course, but... XD

@ Hantheman

Your rules work for big ships. But transports would not count as unique.

Why dont you simply say No to your PCs if they want such an oversized ship? You are essentially doing just that by disallowing the cost is no object rule. Id prefer an honest no by the GM instead of such a convoluted and overly complicated ruleset that achieves just about the same thing.

@ Vonresh: Well its not really my rule - that how its currently written over 4-5 chapters in 3 books. The rules for acquisition and availability are badly written and very clunky - I suspect it has to do with parts having been lifted directly from DH. A workable solution is to have hull have an availability based on class, something like:

Ship Class - Availbility

Transport - Scarce

Raider,Frigate - Very Rare

Light Cruiser, Cruiser, Battlecruiser - Extremely rare

Grand Cruiser - Unique

If the hull comes with a component built in (cargo holds, launch bays, weapons, etc), use the rarity of the rarest component and add +5 for each additional component of Availability test.

@ Errant: No - the rules are specifically clear on this that Essential components do have a cost. In fact many essentials which have 0 cost do have spac/power/different effects, eg Bridge, Life Support, Sensors, to a lesser extent Shields, Gellar Field, and in the case of a Grand Cruiser even Plasma Drive.

Buying a ship this way is the "customised car" method. If done this way and the players take their time by doing 1-2 tests per session, (to trigger less mishaps and other complications), you will be looking at a very powerful, custom built, ship after 7 - 15 session.

If you want to go the "used car" method where u can just have the players go window shipping at the salvage yards to see whats available (up to GM really for this). Purchase the hull as per normal rules but it can come with additional 0 SP components for +5 to the test as per combining purchase, and can be modified down by battle damage (-1 per HI) or permanent structural damage (-5 per permanent -1 to any ship stat). This may be useful for buying Lemons where all your players want is cargo haulers/escorts to move stuff after they establish trade routes.

Ahh sry then.

But i am definitgely no fan of these convoluted aquisition rules.

1. Most players start without Inquiry or scrutiny to actually search for items. (Solution let your quartermaster roll his crew rating of 30-50 to find an item; works but not really RAI i think)

2. It can mean that a player will stand in font of a stormbolter unable tgo buy one, but buy a Cargo hold next (Same modifer raw/ -10 for 2nd roll maybe). Stormbolters are frikkin expensive, but not that expensive.

So yeah i know you proably are no fan of rules like that either, but RT2.0 really, really needs one streamlioned set of aqusition.

Personally i only let people roll PF for aqusition, wrapping the search for an item into that stat (people who have lots of money attract attention/ but not only the bad type as in ItS) on top im giving out +10 to personal items (unless bought in bulk for armies), since cargo holds should be more expensive than a single suit of Power armour. Heirloom or not.

The problem with the entire availability/acquisition rule is how its laid out really.

Availability is in Chap. V: Armoury of the Core Rules (originally written for DH)

Acquisition is in Chap IX: Playing the Game of the Core Rules (new rules for RT)

No where does it state what is the availability of a Hull - but Chapter VIII: Starships defines it as an Essential Component

The additional rules in ITS and BFK expands on the availability/acquisition but never addresses the poor mesh of rules properly.

That certainly explains a few of the problems.

Scrutiny is mentioned in chapter 5. Written for DH, where after the skill roll the GM told you an amount of thrones and you either substracted that resource or did not get the item.

RT added the aquisition rules which were simply stacked on top of the existing DH rules.

Ignoring certain parts doesnt seem so bad at all then. Starship components are simply nefariously esxensive after all, why should it be easier aquiring such an item, than a simple (even if mastercrafted) item.

It feels alot like the BFK ground war rules. Good try, needs more rules iterations to work properly (as in fluent and streamlined).

Availability is not the same thing as cost. its the raraty of something and how hard it is too get. thats why if i want a personaly storm bolter thats relativly not so hard. however if i want too arm my 20 bodyguard with bolters that would be harder?

now realy how hard do you think it would be for a schipyard too and a carco bay V a new plasma drive (nr 1 easy nr 2 not that easy) same with schips

transports are being built (give or take) every 10 years by sertan planets as there payment raiders (distroyers in navy speak) might take somewhat longer.

cruisers would take 100s of years of effort? you don`t think after all that work they are just going too sell it too you? no this was made for the emperors navy not lord whatever you name is the rogue trader.

unless it was seeing i read somewhere that some starting rogue traders get a cruiser from the start just becaus they are that inportant (at the begning)

but buying an other? grand cruiser even! years of work and milenia on history, countless legends. that would mean good contacts with the navy, a lot of money. backing by some powerfull ppl these things take a lot of resorces

personaly i`m of the oppinion if you buy a schip you lose the same amount of profit factor as ship points. (you realy want that big schip fine your going too pay for it too)

Just a friendly advice.

Try to clean up your words and overall thought schemes a bit please?

I write rather convoluted stuff at times, but yours i cant really decipher. I have the impression you are replying to me and then swerve over to reply to the OP. But im not too sure.

If the first part was actually aimed at me:

The Explorer with given rules has the same aquisition chance of getting a Stormbolter and a Cargo bay, once he has found them. Thats the conundrum. And the finding something aint too hard, PCs have a tendency to fly to a forgeworld if they understand the workings of the 40k universe AKA every 2nd tabletop gamer.

And as others can attest, the aquisition rules arent the best written part of the Core rulebook, since the "finding something" part seems copy&Pasted from DH. Which doesnt really help.

i`ll try and i know on both the writing and the rules and it wasn`t only you i was responding too

I like one thing redhead said... doing some damage to the group's profit factor if they purchase a new starship. afterall it represents a huge investment in capital. I don't think it should be a 1 for 1 exchange of sp for pf... that seems too high. I'll have to think about it but maybe it will involve changing in permanent p.f. points to get bonuses on their acquisition roles.

also, getting a new ship is too rich of a potential adventure to pass up. Say the pc's want to acquire a massive hull like a grand cruiser... I would assume that it comes with stock essential components (that I will pick) and NO supplementary components. i would allow the pc's to get bonuses to their acquisition rolls if they are willing to look into an "after market" model. For each essential component they are willing to sacrifice i will give them a bonus to the roll. So getting a junker they have to tow out of the lot will be much easier.

I find players are almost always willing to spend hours of gaming sessions running about the universe because they chasing after a new Augur array or some new BFG's...

I do it this way.

First NO ships are available on a die roll other than transports as GM I determine if a ship is available.

If a ship is aquired through strait up purchase the players have to burn PF based on the ship size, escort 1, Light cruiser 2, Cruiser (includes battle cruisers)3, Grand Cruisers (in my home rules they are a little more impressive than by the book) 5. Ships are simply to expensive to cash flow them, the amount of capital needed to purchase one requires the liquidation of assets.

Also any ship not mothballed requires vast resources to run and maintain and require assets be devoted to doing that. Each ship has an upkeep cost equal to the purchase cost of it as listed above, so 3 for a Cruiser. So if your group had Cruiser and a PF of 50 their effective profit factor would be 47 and 47 is the number you would use in all acquisition tests. If that same group then purchased a frigate their profit factor would then be 49 with an effective PF of 45. This allows the players to expand but keeps it reasonable.

The cost is no object rule make little or no sense the way it is set up. We revamped the PF system to among other things to figure out how often you could make acquisitions rolls, differentiate small scale purchases from large scale ones, and the effects of the bargain and commerce skills. I think I talked about about it in another thread. Don't want to go through it again as it is a serious wall of text.

I've solved this problem with this system : Acquisitions in the Charax Crusade

The main rule to look at is:

Modifiers which take your PF below 0 = AT automatically fails.

• So if the SP of the ship is 51 and your PF is 50 it is beyond your means, no matter what modifiers you add to it.
• In this way I can ignore the need for many upkeep tests or worrying about subtracting PF for buying a ship.

The RT and his group are perfectly able to buy, if they get a good roll, any number of vessels, assuming they want to be stuck in port for months at a time getting it, outfitting it and crewing it. Be my guest.