As it's something that's come up a few times, especially in the Novel related threads, i thought i'd actually broach the subject for us all to discuss.

Now, in the Abnett & Mitchell novels the tech levels of most societies is reletively high, for example you have hover vehicles aplenty (most notably in one of the Ciaphus Cain books).

Yet in the 40k canon, the STC for hover vehicles is a rare thing.

No longer do the Marines have scores of jetbikes, let alone the long forgotton hover surfboards.

Just the simple Vincent Blackshadow warbike (sometimes Trike) and if they're really lucky a much repaired Tornado or similar variant.

How have you found the vast differences between established canon, novel worlds and the uprising "fanon" which has seen the preffered grittier version of the setting which if oft missing from the novels and sometimes only found in the old editions of 40k..

Which setting do you prefere, grim & gritty medival with guns & swords where everyone is guilty and its only a matter of time before you get killed for heresy, or the hyper technology spies & psykics....

Discuss, if you will please!

Velvetears said:

This is my preference...

I'm Greedy - so both

My Imperium is big enough and strange enough to encompass most aspects of the two elements...........depends where I am setting a game...........

re Marine and IG Jetbikes - I still have mine - although they have now brought one back (Dark Angels) and stated the others are lost.........which probably means they are still being used here and there by Chapters / IG Regiments

Actually an interesting point Da Boss.

Perhaps within the range of the Astronomican (and the core Imperium influence), the grimdark version rules, but out in the eastern Imperium, beyond the 'Emperor's light' a far more advanced version of Humanity remains...?

Interesting.

There is definately room for huge disparties in technology and culture - even without planets being cut off by Warp Storms etc - I think areas such as the Ultramarines fiefdom would be hugely different to areas where less enlightened members of the Church hold sway? IIRC In the Crossfire novels the Adaptus Arbites officer is from the former and she is struck by how strange the Church dominated world she is on compared to the enlightened worlds of Ultramar.............

Some areas are probably backwaters and as longs as the tithe of taxes and soldiers flow could be and are quite prosperous / advanced - until something goes wrong........

I will admit much of "my" concept of the imperium" is dark but there are points of light and hope....................

Luddite said:

The Halo Stars perhaps....

But in canon there was a civilisation that WAS superior to the imperium in every way technologically, and the Emporor and co rolled over them (covered in the Horus Hersy Novels) down to sheer weight of numbers.

Well, in one of the Scum Carrier levels there is a mention of the scum stealing some noble's grav-sedan. Apocrypha: Vehicles writes about grav-vehicles being quite popular in the open hives of Salomon. House of Ash and Dust adventure has one of the chapters taking place on board of a steampunk airship, held aloft by gravplates.

Imperium's tech-level is quite schizophrenic, I recall some older fluff describing a world with grav-carriages being pulled by horses, because local manufactora produced lots of gravplates but no engines. I believe that the military doesn't use grav-vehicles because they aren't of any great use, shiny baubles of the overprivileged. Cars, airplanes and balloons in the real world were available to the rich people long before the military even noticed their uses.

That is not to say I don't like the promethium-powered 1930s automobiles that were mentioned quite a lot. I even prefer them to the flying ones, because IMHO that's what distinguishes 40k from other scifi.

In the Imperium, there is room for all levels of tech really. Just look at a Hive world and a Fudel World. If the hive world (barring the need for high-thechery just to keep it's bursting overpopulation alive) were essentially low tech swords and what-not with a few exceptions, what would be the difference between it and a Fudal World?

I, like others, like my tech to be eclectic. I like bizarre mismatched tech levels such as a hive that has an incredible network of pictcasters that broadcast sermons, propaganda, blood sports, and other opiates for the masses but relies on suction tubing (think Brazil or a bank drive through) for communications within it's self. The reason why; who knows. It's just the way it's always been. There's a reason, just no really knows what it is. Much like the example of the grav plated horse carriages above. I love miss-matched and mixed up tech, culture, and what have you.

In short, like 40k, I don't like limiting my self to just one extreme or the other, I take a little of both. My game, like the bulk of 40k, is fueled by the Rule of Cool. If I wanted hard sci-fi that made some kind of sense, I'd play a game where the default sidearm was not a chainsaw. ;-)

Idaan said:

I see it with all of the above. There is so much out there that anything could be possible. In DH we are dealing with the greater possibilities within the Empire, not just the small slice we see with the Warhammer 40,000 tabletop minis game.

The issue of grav vehicles is one that bugged me for the longest time. If the Imperium has grav technology, then how come it's not more widely implemented?

I think one of the answers is that the greater part that the grav/repulsor tech of the Imperium at large is not currently at a power level that can be used in military vehicles. It's easy to make a hoversedan which only weighs in at no more than 2 tons, while a Rhino weighs in at well over 30 tons. Sure you can make a grav version of a Rhino, however you need to fill the entire hold of the beast with engines and equiptment to make it operate. However by doing that it defeats the Rhino's purpose of a troop transport let alone an effective military asset.

Another reason is that the tech is there, just not common enough to be used on a great scale. Not to mention it would take a long time to distribute the tech. So it is possible that the tech is there and being used, but only in a select areas or with select individuals and groups. So Marines, Guard, Or Sisters using grav-vehicles would be rare, but they would be out there in areas where they are plentifull and can be maintained.

A third reason is a question of economical maintentence. It's easier to use and maintain a lower tech vehicle or device than a complex one. The less maintenence means the easier you can have things in great numbers and be able to use, build, or recycle them. The sad truth is that tech is decaying with little to jumpstart it's production, implementation, and innovation within the Imperium, and it shows. Of course the Adeptus Mechanicus are trying to do othewise, but one can only do so much.

My personal preference is that there is a lot of uber high-tech gear around, but it is only available if you either have lots of cred with the AM, or they have little to no presence nearby. I like the idea that they are doing their best to make themselves indispensable to the Imperium, and gain political leverage by gaining a monopoly on technology and science. Of course, I doubt that most of the Adeptus Mechanicus knows this, but the Mechanicum (as I like to think of them- the core elements, all at least magi or higher, who actually run the show and remember that the Mechanicum isn't technically part of the Imperium of Man) are deliberately suppressing knowledge and disseminating designs that are big, clunky and steampunk/victorian/gothic-esque.

More than anything, I like the study in contrasts you can get with Imperial technology- there is one world where refrigerated anti-grav robot hover trucks are routinely used to take produce to market, but the wheel is a proscribed technology, used only as a device of torture and execution. There are other worlds where the matchlock arquebus is the pinnacle of technology, except for microbead voxes to deliver orders in the field.

Essentially, I love the fact that I can mix it up without worrying too much about verisimilitude, as all it takes is some bizarre local law (possibly theological, possibly not), or maybe a bit of thought as to how it will effect their local culture and society.

In general though? I visualise much of my game world as a cross between David Lynch's Dune, Casshern and the Mutant Chronicles movie, with extra gothic and flying dead babies tacked on for effect...

For me, most of the "retro-tech" and "steampunk" image is just that: image, or a cultural aesthetic that offers one of the (few) commonalities of "Imperial society." Thus, that scroll isn't just a scroll, but rather epaper (or something more advanced) attached to some form of computer (or whatever you want to label it). If you brought it back to "anti-grav" technologies, then on advanced worlds they are certainly present, if expensive. I'm not talking about hoverboards here (link to clip from Back to the Future II), but at the same time just because it might look like it comes from the 1930s doesn't mean that it is the same thing.

Or does the Imperium truly restrict "advanced" technologies to floating skulls with "frickin' laser beams" attached to the skull? Imagery is all good and well, but sometimes it comes with a price...

Thus, for me, technology is everywhere. It's just not always easy to determine what is "high tech," that's all. Much of the restrictions seem born more out of wargame balance and the premise of the "thematic army" than anything else.

The Adeptus Mechanicus, on the other hand, are just plain crazy. The worship of the machine, and through the machine to touch upon the Machine God, in my mind drives them to create bastardised technologies. I can imagine island-spanning valve supercomputers side-by-side with crystal interface technologies, stacked atomic power plants being used to turn a water wheel, or whatever other manner of oddity you can imagine. It doesn't mean that they don't understand the technology, nor does it mean that they're only doing it that way because of STC, but - and again, this is for me - but because they are changing the universe through their "worship."

That's just me, though.

Kage

Velvetears said:

Spiced with high gothic clothing, Victorian age society, XVI century (space)navy and many, many more.

I love 40k for its diversity, but mostly I see it as a XIX century earth with high technology (a little bit steampunk in feeling), dark sorcery, vile aliens and lots of influential clergy.

Mirac said:

The thing is, the fluff on Vostroyans, who all have wooden stock lasrifles says that it's a sign of quality and masterful crafting. So an STC lasgun would have cheap, ferroplastic stock, while an expensive one-off made by famous artificier would be fashioned from wood.

Personally I find the tech levels in the game rubbish, there is no consistency. There is supposed to be only 1surviving Jetbike as ridden by the master of the Ravenwing Dark angels. Why has it not been copied and replicated? According to the Horus heresy card game there are whole squads of marines using jetbikes. Where did they go?. There are pictures of devastator marine squads with all 10 men carrying assault cannons!

It seems to me that the Imperium has been bleed to the point of near uselessness by the static dogma of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

AdMech: "No you can't put a battery in your toothbrush, It's heresy."

Guardsman: "What the.....Get out of my bathroom, Coghead."

The Emperor should have treated the machine cult just like any other religion. Obliteration at the hands of the Astartes. Kill them all and take anything useful for the glory of man-kind.

VarniusEisen said:

Not AdMech but church, by the way the most heretical group in whole the Empire (after all worshiping Emperor as a god was crime during his reign).
Emperor couldn't obliterate AdMech because his precious Astartes are dependent from this cult.

VarniusEisen said:

Since day one there has never been consistancy with tech in 40K. It's part of the setting and part of what makes the game interesting. To use IRL who are used to a practical and realistic level of tech, you could call the inconsistanies in 40K rubbish. Or you can use and embrace the factor in using it in a unique game world that is not our own.

As for jetbikes, in the 40K minis game there was a time when they were standard units for both the Guard and Marines. Why aren't they there now? It's GW's current policy to not have them at large. One of the few points that really ticks me off about the company. If they deem something is "redundant" or "unworkable" it either goes to the backburner and put deep in the background, or is outright trashed. Even newer concepts are treated this way. Sadly this has lead to a lot of inconsistency in the game world at large. Interestingly enough, the Horus Heresy background and visuals that was published for the card game goes back to a lot of older concepts for 40K that have been largely scrapped or dropped. Which is rather odd for GW.

So are there no jetbikes in the 40K world anymore? I don't think so. It just depends on where you are in the galaxy, who has them, how well are they maintained, and the fact that any self respecting owner isn't going to let something valuable like that go or go for cheap.

Why is there only one jetbike left for the Ravenwing? There could be a thousand different reasons, especially considering the degridation of tech in the galaxy. It could just be that one day the losses were not calculated and there was only a few left, and all resources were set to support the one. Why doesn't the one Ravenwing bike get copied? It's a functional bit of military hardware and the chapeter master's "baby". Do you really think he's going to let the techies take it apart, spend an indeterminant amount of time trying to copy it, and maybe not be able to put it together again? I don't think so.

Back in the day when the Emperor was alive, the Adeptus Mechanicus was not the organization it is in the current timeline. Though it existed largely as it does currently, it was far less dogmatic, more practical in it's views of technology, encouraged inovation and research, and was fully sanctioned by the Emperor, Imperium, and imperial society.. In fact it was far more prominent in position in the Empire, and didn't suffer a lot of the superstition and "heretical" issues that it does now. It changed quite a bit in the years and centuries following the end of the Horus Heresy.

One of the grinding and "dark" issues of the 40K universe is that the dogma and aproach of a lot of groups is causing the breakdown of the Imperium. Not just the Adeptus Mechanicus, though they are a big factor in the matter. However what is "official" and what is really happening across the galaxy are not always the same.

One thing about the 40K universe in regards to tech that isn't touched on is that for all that the Adeptus Mechanicus is, and how they handle technology, they aren't and couldn't be the end all and be all of tech users/makers/designers on the block. You get enough people who hang around tech, computers, machines, etc, you will eventually get new techies. I would like to personally see some background for DH about the practical techie. The mechanic, the bodger, the inventor, the computer junkie, the fabricator et all. Guys and gals who might share beliefs as the Mechanicus do, however they also see and aproach it all on a practial level as well. It doesn't matter what bounds there are with dogma and belief, people exposed to tech will embrace it if it strikes their fancy or if there is great need. Especially in the miltary. Do you think that a Guard commander is going to wait in the middle of battle for the AM tech squad to show up to maybe fix a damaged yet needed Chimera when the driver of said vehicle says that he knows whats ailing the beast and can have it up in running in 5 minutes? Heck no. Man is an impatent creature and will take the most practical and convinent way to reach his means in the long run.

It wouldn't be a long shot that despite the potential charges and punishments of heresy that an underground new wave of technlogy and related science and innovation is building up in the Imperium, especially with the constantly failing tech levels. Not to mention organizations and groups that are willing to deal in "fobidden technology".

ClockworkGecko said:

I think that the fans have been there and done that before, i.e. the consideration of what "lay technology" migh be like.

Kage

ClockworkGecko said:

Not for lack of trying... they're the only legitimised source of advanced technology in the Imperium. Everyone else is a jumped-up dabbler (at best; at worst, they're hereteks) by comparison, whether they realise it or not. Of course, it also ignores the idea that the Mechanicus are eager and willing to capitalise on the insights, discoveries and developments of non-Mechanicus technicians - knowledge is too valuable to simply dismiss out of hand.

ClockworkGecko said:

We actually know they don't - maybe a third of all the common variants of the Chimera, Leman Russ and even the Shadowsword and Baneblade Superheavy Tanks were originally field conversions to replace an irreparably damaged advanced weapon with something simpler and easier to maintain. Similarly, several Predator and Land Raider variants used by the Astartes are the result of field conversions.

The Mechanicus don't like it, but they have this tendancy to swoop in and claim "well, actually, that's a feature of the STC design; you just unwittingly capitalised upon it" whenever someone modifies a piece of equipment successfully.

That, IMO, is why the Mechanicus are so widespread and successful and dominant - in their quest for knowledge, there are few places they won't go and few resources they won't utilise. Non-affiliated users and designers of technology are a resource as much as a meagre form of competition, sought out, utilised and disposed of once their usefulness is done.

Of course there are others besides the Mechanicus making use of, developing and creating technological marvels... and the Mechanicus themselves are keen to take advantage of their insights even as the misguided hereteks are ruthlessly purged. They wouldn't be half as dominant if they weren't willing or able to do this...