You guys are talking about the Forsaken Priest alternate rank, which the book says usually reflects Xanthites or Oblationists. The tricky thing about Oblationists is that they knowingly sacrifice their soul to wield Chaos against Chaos. Thepath reflects a conscious decision to sell their soul, even if it is in order to fight for the greater good of the Emperor. So, you know, they compromise their faith on purpose, which is why they lose Pure Faith talents.

Lynata said:

It's called warp shock. If you get insanity points from seeing a demon with a fear rating you get his fear rating in corruption points too. That doesn't have to be much, but it's annoying. I think in Saga edition there was a dark side fear power that allowed you to either suffer the effects or take a darkside point to ignore them. This is nothing like that. There's neither a choice nor a benefit to corruption. Chaos surely got a lot of servants by intimidating people with demons ("Yes, yes, I'll work for you, just make that ugly thing turn away from me!"), but there are a lot of different possibilities to deal with that. Among others the "never again" route where you decide to get voluntary brainwashing or a brain rewiring to keep your pants clean the next time.

Lynata said:

Personally I'm especially annoyed by "blasphemous lore". Blasphemy is incredibly broad, according to Wikipedia it's "Irreverence toward holy personages, religious artifacts, customs, and beliefs." Would reading a grafitti that says "The Emperor was a Psyker" give corruption points? "Alicia Dominica was Vandire's *****"? Or maybe the book "Culture vs. Kultur: Thoughts on Orkish Society" by Uthan the Perverse about how Orks are the superior race?

Lynata said:

Given that the Sororitas are supposed to be the pinnacles of purity, I liked that rule in the IH. The Sisters are all about strict rules and codes of conduct - players who dislike this idea would be advised to roll another career, for they would likely miss an "appropriate" (from my personal PoV) depiction of a Sororitas character. This doesn't really lessen the fun you can have as a Sister, it's just that they're not really suited to be played like an everyday person. Same goes for Marines (unless you play the special snowflake Space Wolves ). And regarding Corruption gains in the normal field of work, a Sisterhood character has sufficient ways to avoid it. At least I think so... (time will tell - currently on rank 3 with my first one)

I play the even more special snowflake Night Wolves. And I'm not interested in playing a character who gets tools for self-flagellation as starting equipment. I just think it's unfair to create a powerful class in a way that the GM can easily screw it. Look at the D&D Paladin, the butt of so many jokes. I don't know how many instructions I've seen over the years that tell you how to force a Paladin to commit an evil act and make him lose all his special abilities. You don't even have to force sisters into something. You just have to confront them with enough blasphemy and sorcery to make them burn through their fate points.

Lynata said:

I would be interested in seeing what you come up with.

Lynata said:

No, like BangBangTequila said they specifically lose it. Which is in favour of your purity theory but against the WarCraft "as long as you can justify it".

Okay, back to the more specific question, the influence of being "denounced and condemned" on the faith of a sister.

"Amongst the Sisters of Battle, there are a rare few who have
been blessed, or cursed, with a strange gift: the ability to see
into people’s hearts and divine the tides that flow in their
soul. Such individuals protest they are no heretic, that their
faith in the God-Emperor is pure and strong. However, they
are denounced by your sisters as a heretic and a witch. The
Adepta Sororitas is not forgiving or understanding, and the
slightest hint of psyker witchery must be purged, even at the
expense of one of their own.
Those unlucky enough to have their secret known (or
foolish enough to confess their ‘blessing’ to their sisters) are
branded witches and accused of consorting with the unclean.
They are subjected to endless days of questioning and
torment in dank cells until their entire existence is consumed
by madness and pain.
Most die in darkness. A very few, however, are noticed by
powers beyond the authority of their former order, such as a
member of the Inquisition. An Inquisitior may see the divine
truth in the ability of this fallen sister, and raise her to do
holy service, but she can never again count herself among the
sisters of the Adepta Sororitas."

Maybe I'm looking at it from a too modern standpoint, but a Sister usually thinks she does the work of the Emperor when she purges the witch, the mutant and the heretic. Being suddenly branded a witch herself can lead to multiple reactions:

1) The Ecclesiarchy is always right, oh Emperor I'm a witch (she isn't, there's nothing psyky about her ability) purge me! She will probably still have trouble to answer any questions about her "consorting with the unclean".

2) I'm no witch, I'm blessed by the Emperor, my sisters just don't get it.

3) I know that I'm no witch, but if I am not, what about the people I rounded up to be burned? Does the Emperor really want that? Is that right?

I guess the latter can lead basically to the same question a Paladin and a Scarlet Crusader would ask themselves when they meet. "Hey, I'm good, he's evil, how can he use the holy light?"

"Blasphemous lore" means things like "How to Summon a Bloodthirster."

This is Space Middle Ages here. Corruption Points measure your level of Damnation, going to the burny place. In true Middle Ages Fashion (more precisely, the Middle Ages as conceived by British game designers), the likeliness of this happening depends largely on knowing stuff you shouldn't and doing things you shouldn't. In addition, there is a Lovecraft influence overlaid on this, in which, by seeing reality (the Warp, which IS reality), you become yourself drawn to it, your naive illusions in the rightness of the world torn assunder. Hence, Warp Shock. Fear from Daemons is not just fear, it is the veils of reality being torn asunder so you see the hideous truth of what reality really is, whicb is why their Fear rating is so incredibly high; it's not just because they are scary and stuff. There is a THIRD level here in which the Warp is conceived of as a sort of toxic substance, that damns you by its mere proximity. When a daemon shows up, it is accompanied by warp-toxic-radiation-stuff, hence a further reason for Warp Shock.

I could probably make this more coherent if I had an extra hour or so.

bogi_khaosa said:

Where do you get that definition?

Mjoellnir said:

By looking at pretty much all the examples in the rulebooks, which are invariably grimoires of sorcery and/or forbidden lore.

bogi_khaosa said:

Where did you find the examples? I would like to check them out. And "Forbidden Lore" is another elastic term, that is applied pretty broadly. Tau technology is forbidden lore. Eldar psychic techniques are forbidden lore. The dark secret of the Dark Angels is forbidden lore. Still, nothing of that should make a human grow tentacles. But it does. If you choose the Penitent background package you can choose "Forbidden Lore: Xenos" and "Forbidden Lore: Dark Angels" (just an example, of course knowing what happened on Caliban wouldn't be that easy). But you start the game with around 15 corruption points and a malignancy. The game needs a decent definition of what exactly is corrupting and how.

Mjoellnir said:

That stuff doesn't make you grow tentacles. It's the Chaos-related stuff.

Malefic Codex (DoDG p. 120)

The Books of Empty Promises (DoDG p. 130)

The Book of Names (RH p. 177)

The Libellus Apello (RH p. 177)

The Folio Diabolicus (RH p. 185)

The Occultus ad Oculos (RH p. 185)

bogi_khaosa said:

Again, that is common sense, not the rules. For the rules it's completely unimportant if a penitent is a former Gue'vesa or a former demon cultist. Both have the same chance to roll a 31-33 on a Malignancy-test and who's more corrupted depends on a d10.

bogi_khaosa said:

Thanks, looks like their examples follow common sense.

I think it's intended that the Penitent be from some kind of malefic cult; it's implied, though not explicitly stated.

On the Acts of Faith: In the game you use your fate points to gain access to these powers, so in my games i have taken the stance that you tap into your soul in order to use these warp powers safely.

For me this justifies why there are no perils while its still warp based powers.

For normal use you strain your soul, while you actively burns its power for extended benefits.

On Lore corruption: I think it is about knowing things you aren't supposed to know. How to summon demons, the structure of Tau faith system, The Emperor "isn't" a real god (debatable but to me he isn't) and so on.

Bassemandrh said:

The only one of those that would give Corruption (in my reading, and as far as I can see in published examples -- you don't get CPs from reading treatises on Xenos) would be the first one. Knowledge of the other things is Forbidden because it;s dangerous for a different reason (knowledge of it is dangerous to the Imperium or at least runs against the reigning Imperial ideology). The Imperium is a police state (largely speaking); THAT'S why it's forbidden.

Mjoellnir said:

Given that the "Denounced and Condemned" Sister seems to be pretty much a carbon-copy of Ephrael Stern, I'm inclined to go by the TT rules for her character, meaning no Acts of Faith for her, though this is not how it works as per the RAW. I am not sure if the Radical's Handbook was still part of the "old" rules for Pure Faith when it still came with the "Suffer Not The Unclean" condition (and thus being intentional), or if this was already part of the newer BoM rules, basically making it a "retcon".

Either way, I think you are spot on regarding your 3 options. It strongly reminds me of the themes in the Daemonifuge comic, at least.

Mjoellnir said:

Here I'd have to point out that the core rulebook says that Forbidden Lore may award Corruption Points on the GM's discretion . Other than that it's only the "police state" thingie bogi had already pointed out. And else all those Acolytes with "Forbidden Lore (Inquisition)" might be in trouble.

It's basically just two things being lumped together in the same skill group. Things forbidden by law, and truly heretical knowledge which (in addition to being forbidden) can really corrupt the user. Needless to say, depending on the individual topic and the character in question, this can be a very grey area. Just as Corruption seems to be in general. But that's left to the GM to figure out, and I think that's okay.

I see the faith powers as an extremely stable use of warp energy, perhaps not even detectable as such by means normally used to detect psychic activity. And only available to those who truly believe, as their belief acts as a conduit and a safe channel for such energies.

If the game was called "Stasi Agent" it would have skills like Forbidden Lore (West Germany) and Forbidden Lore (KGB).

Is 'Faith' being thrown round here as a concept, or is it just a label folks? Magic Users in diguise?

The concept of Faith is believing in something despite not having any real evidence upon which to base/justify that belief. e.g. having faith in God, or having faith that someone who let you down last time will come through this time.

The only Faith power that makes any sense to me is the Pure Faith talent, because it is about strength of will. e.g The Battle Sister believes in the Emporer's protection so strongly that when she encounters a demon, she is able to remain resolute in the face of that fearful presence.

The rest all just seems like D&D magic to me and if Battle Sisters are tapping the warp to fuel magic then they have become what they hate most (perils or no perils).

Channeling the Emporer's power? Maybe, but claiming to be a conduit for the emporer's power is really pushing the boundaries of heresy.

@ bogi_khaosa

"If the game was called "Stasi Agent" it would have skills like Forbidden Lore (West Germany) and Forbidden Lore (KGB)".

Love it, Bravo Zulu.

Zakalwe said:

40k is filled with such irony, though. The entire Imperium is quite different from how the Emperor wanted things to be.

But I also like the "classic" Acts of Faith from the TT, in that they could be interpreted as miracles just like they could be the respective characters just really pushing themselves, combined with a portion of luck. BoM has added a few more that could fit like this, but there are also others that have reminded me of "D&D spells" as well, some clearly striking me as a bit "over the top". Matter of taste, of course. Yet, I somehow liked this "uncertainty" from the TT AoF - as much as I am intrigued by the scientific explanation behind it.

Zakalwe said:

Not really. The Ministorum does, from time to time, judge and approve officially sanctioned interpreters of His Divine Will, which, in principle, comes pretty close "channeling" His power. More importantly, however, is that it should not be seen as the servant wielding his master's divine power, but rather the Master of Mankind acting through his loyal servants. For doeth it not say "He who watches over us"?

In a way, it's also just like a cleric blessing an individual, an item, or an endeavour. I'm sure that all of us take the cleric's ability to do so for granted, but it works by the same principle.

And lastly, it's only Heresy if the Church says it is.

"No, It heresy if Jungo-Max, Inquisition bad ass say it is!"

Sorry Lynata, couldn't resist. Jungo and co. took out the Widower and the Beloved yesterday (Tattered Fates) and he's feeling pretty full of himself.

And yes, I can see now how Faith could be viewed differently for someone with a much more extensive knowledge of the backgound and any knowledge of the TT. I don't have to like it and still don't, but I can understand from whence it comes.

(I do really like the Sororitas though regardless of what I think about Faith powers and intend to play a Denounced and Condemed Sister Famulous or Dialogous who has found a new lease of life in the Inquisition should the above named assassin cop it (and he has burnt two fate points in the last two sessions now, so that may not be far away))

Cheers.

bogi_khaosa said:

Yeah, in that case they should have limited the possible Forbidden Lores or pre-chosen one.

Lynata said:

The background package doesn't make you lose your faith powers and doesn't award any corruption points that could make you lose them (only insanity points from the nice treatment your sisters give you). Interestingly their "Witch Sight" itself works a lot like a faith power. I tried to read up on Ephrael Stern but didn't find a lot, only that she's some kind of mega-anti-demon psyker and that some Ordo Malleus Inquisitors think she's the savior of humanity while the rest tries to hunt her down.

Lynata said:

I guess I really have to get that comic. Concerning the three I guess the one that simply things that the Emperor blessed her and that her sisters are wrong could theoretically keep her faith powers. Of course that kind of self-assurance and lack of self-reflection could lead her down a dark path. After all she has proof that she's blessed, so how can she go wrong?

Lynata said:

I hate grey areas for GMs. Personally I would ignore a lot of the corruption rules anyway.

Zakalwe said:

Both. We're talking about the concept, the mechanics and their interaction.

Zakalwe said:

First of all Faith often makes it's own "real" evidence. Think of all the relics we have. Additionally faith works a bit different in fantasy settings where you often have proof that the gods exist. Denying the existence of something you can visit through a dimensional portal doesn't make much sense. Instead faith is believing that something is worth being worshiped.

Zakalwe said:

I agree that I liked it better when you couldn't be sure if the Sisters were really blessed by some power or if they were just such a fusion of crazy fanatics and martial artists that they could push themselves beyond human limits. However, them drawing on the warp is a nice irony. And even if their power is Emperor-given. That only proves that the Emperor is powerful, not that he's a god.

Mjoellnir said:

That's just it - I think it should, and the TT miniature explicitly mentioned this in the special rules. Given that BoM completely negates any negative repercussions from Corruption (at least insofar as Faith talents are concerned), it just strikes me as a general increase of "leniency" (i.e. they dumbed down the rules to make it less gritty). That said, this is just my interpretation / the conclusions I've drawn - given the little information we have, my opinion of course remains theory.

Let's just say that, regardless of the nature of the powers behind Acts of Faith, a "crisis of faith" should have its effect on a Sister, and being Denounced and Condemned definitively qualifies as a "crisis of faith" for me, given what Sisters grow up believing in (which is both "Psykers = bad" as well as "the Canoness is always right").

That said, perhaps there could be a way how a Sister could re-gain her faith (and thus her powers) - I just think it's not so good that this difficult path is not represented in the rules at all, it's pretty much just flicking a switch.

Mjoellnir said:

Well, I mainly got it because it's one of the very few pieces of Sororitas literature out there, though I also liked its story with all the internal conflict (Sisters vs Inquisition, Inquisition vs Inquisition, Ephrael vs all) and the many short "guest appearances" of the Adeptus Arbites, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons and even Eldar / Dark Eldar. Aside from that, the drawings of the first two books are also of a very high quality and feature a lot of CGI (it was actually marketed as a "graphic novel" rather than a mere comic). And lastly, there's also some data/descriptions of Sororitas equipment, or about the Lunar-class cruiser "Hammer of Thor".

If you really like it probably depends on how much you like the Sisterhood. I know a number of people on these forums who would rage at the Sisters pulling off "novel Marine" stunts just because this time, it's them that get featured.

*g* I see your point, however it depends a lot on ones point of view. Look at the Hierophant quote from Ascension:

“Ask me not to define faith, for faith is that which defies definition. It
is that which, when everything around you collapses and is proven a
lie, remains, pure, intact, pristine.”

Faith is pretty much crazy, and you can find a justification for everything if it is strong enough. Sure, the canoness is always right, psykers are evil, but if someone gets you out of that dungeon it's a clear sign that the Emperor still watches over you. After all if he wanted you to burn at a stake nobody would come to free you. Now that I think about that Miko Miyazaki would be a perfect Sister..... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html

Lynata said:

I hate Sisters. But that has nothing to do with the fact that they could pull off Marine stunts. Even Blackbeard could do that. It's just that hate almost any faction in 40k that I didn't create. Okay, I have a soft spot for Ulthwé Eldar, Space Wolves and Blood Angels....

Mjoellnir said:

Mjoellnir said:

Now that I think about that Miko Miyazaki would be a perfect Sister..... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html

from france

as a former catholic who became a rationalist athé i must say that people who belives are both in and out hiercarchy system. same thing for dark heresy. after all what are sister of battle if not star wars clone army of johan of arc? i know that is a very simple description.

talking about rpg book i have so many that when i move to my appartement 8 years ago it needed a military metalic box............ and since then it only grew.

in my collection i have "hunter the reckoning" from my point of view a very good game if you played it "chill or chtulu" types of campaign. i know the pictures are misleading and a lot of player flame it without reading it but the origin of hunter (the most credible one) is that a higher force facing to many threat imput some people with power to help him figthing this threats.

in hunter madness and isolation will condemn you well before you became a saint "no sir i didnt shoot a person i shoot a zombie"... in dh people will welcome you because those threat are real known and fear. So your huneter/priest/ soritas has pure faith and is celebretate for that.

sorry if my style of writing is not good but it is 1 o clock in the morning here.

hopes it s help any way.

Lynata said:

I can see where you're coming from, and you do have a point. I guess I just think that, in the case of a Sister, the indoctrination would be stronger (if this judgement indeed comes from her own peers and not some other organization or government) - after all, suddenly her entire world turns against her. But I suppose either way could be argued.

I think I will go your route with my NPC. I want her to be smart enough to doubt her faith. Even at the cost of the faith powers and the limits that puts on the Ascension careers.

Lynata said:

Not bad, not bad at all!

Yep, considering that she's a D&D Paladin that was just stripped of her powers by the gods she prays to for commiting a majorly evil act that's a lot of faith and rationalization.

the 8 spider said:

I think I read somewhere that the "higher force" is actually the same that threw the demons into hell for giving humanity sentience....

the 8 spider said:

Are Hunter powers really Faith-related? Because there's also True Faith in Vampire (same setting) which allows a lot of interesting stuff but has hellish requirements (I think 9+ humanity score). Basically the people who could drive back Vampires with crosses or burn them with holy water had true faith.

wasn`t hunter and vampire more or less the same system only an other view point??

psyers manipulat the warp

the condemd sisters has ether some wierd mutasion, a sliver of the emperors power or a low grade psy power.

whatever it is could be of intrest too the inquisitor as he wasn`t too find out too while useing her for his plans

as for the priest and the SOB they belive that the god emperor is a real god and will protect them from deamons (useing fate too ativate faith)

or if they pray hard enuf they they can protect others (burn a fate point)

the how or why it works i won`t get into. thats more of a personal Q or one for the GM too make on how he see`s it

becaus lets be real lots ppl in DH believe in him only just the ones with true faith can chanel that faith into something powerful

and those 'minor' miracal does are powerful things when used well (like healing someone from near death too almost total healt just by faith)

i`ll leave this here at this for think other then what i wrote here i think i`m the best person too talk about faith must at all