Necronomicus said:

Your thinking of the Dark Angels, the Rainbow Warriors were named after greenpeace.

Seriously, as I understand it the Dark Angels were designed to be 'Space Spartans'. Back in the day most of the early chapters were the designers own table top armies. The Dark Angels take there name from a Poem 'The Dark Angel' by Lionel Johnson, which is apparently all about repressed homosexuality, hence there Primarchs name; Lion El'Jonson.

Does anyone else find it sad that this continues to be one of the most discussed topics on this board?

Torque2100 said:

Not really, I think most people have already decided how they personally would handle the subject, but theirs been some interesting ideas borne out of the discussion, certainly got me thinking about things.

For instance if we were to imagine that it’s every imperial citizens duty to sire as many children as possible how would that affect such ideas as marriage or monogamy? How would it affect a women’s role in society? Given the themes of genetic purity that underlies the Imperial Creed, would we see some worlds establish a ‘breeding class’? (Handmaidens Tale?)

Not sure if I imagined this or not, but I’m sure way back when there was an issue of WD with an illustration of an SM chapter monastery, one of the chambers was marked harem. Imagined or not wouldn’t it make sense with the shortage of reliable candidates for the SM chapters to try and pass on some of those characteristics that made them so suitable to a new generation? Female offspring might just be treated as breeding stock, or given the pragmatic approach of many of the chapters used to fill in less important roles.

Torque2100 said:

Why is it 'sad'?

Sexuality is one of the core aspectsof a character.

Sexual relations and family (partly touched on) are the cornerstones of culture and society.

DETAIL and information of culture and society in the Imperium is a 'gaping black hole', an unknown at the heart of Dark Heresy, so when an aspect of it is touched on by a question it stands to reason there will be active dabate around it, since knowingly or not, anyone trying to construct an RPG or a character in an RPG lacking these details will struggle...

I think its a little sad that some people seem to be unable to deal with issues like bigotry and hatred when the warhammer 40K setting is such a good setting for it. Just sweeping it under the carpet and saying "oh, I don't want to deal with that" or "I'm ok with it as long as its not in my face" is just as bad. Remember that we are (at least in the case of most people here) Intelligent and open minded people who explore, dream and dare. We don't need the Empire to be politically correct or tolerant, if you want your game to deal with something like bigotry and racism then dwell into it, let it rip. Have priests denounce the act of homosexuality, screaming at the top if their lungs while setting fire to some poor sod for the "crime" of being a sodomite (use terms like that, really offensive, harsh ugly terms). Use it to make the players feel the hate and the intolerance and then make it so openly clear to them that in all its horror, all its corruption and evil the empire is mankinds only hope, the "light" in the darkness. None of us know what the "official" stand on this is, it can vary from sub-cult to sub-cult, giving you a wonderful set of strings to play on. One world will be free love and open ideals of equality in the embrace of the emperor and the next will be welcome to the spanish inquisition, please take a number while we decide how to put you to the flames. In my experiencing being "PC" is normally just another way of trying to hide it or not deal with what ever the issue is. But back to my argument, while roleplaying is about exploring themes and having a great time at it, I don't think we should shy away from dealing with subject matter that challenges or even revolts us, it broadens our minds as long as it doesn't become all the games are about.

Have to agree that this topic is getting done to death, but I think the reasons why are obvious ; )

I run DH every so often and interestingly sexuality has never come up as an issue, but I'm sure it will, so reading these replies has been very useful.

For my own 2c, this is how I will handle it in the game:

Untangle Sex and Sexuality: I like the idea about the emphasis on procreation (where else do those billions of IG come from?), but I think the Imperium would be more interested the number of babies born than in the sexuality of their parents.

Just don't mention the war: There is an important double-standard here in that Sex is a duty, but also a taboo subject. It's the kind of twisted wisdom I'd expect from the Imperium. Again, the Eclesiarchy wouldn't care what your sexuality is (unless they're hitting on you at the time so long as you keep it out of sight.

Emphasize the 'evil of contraception': Regardless of religions reasons, this is one sure way of building the population and it fits in very well. It raises an interesting point about "Chem Gelding" though, and this is where I will begin another double-standard. Commoners have a duty to breed. Eclesiarchy have a duty to not be distracted by sex. Inquisitors/Interrogators/Acolytes would probably still experience a bit of presure to 'pop out a few for the Emperor' (which could also make for good game material).

What goes on tour, stays on tour: Life in the IG would suck awesomely. A Guard would face either extreme boredom or extreme chance of death-by-being-eaten-alive. When every Guardsman around is thinking 'We're all going to die anyway...' no one would give a toss what people did for recreation. Only a 'bad' Commissar would interfere with something that was building morale. As long as they can still aim a lasgun and recite the Emperor's Prayer...

Hereticus minoris: Despite all the above, the greatest double-standard would be that homosexuals would still stand out as non-typical, and would undoubtably raise the ire of mono-dominants who would consider it a 'distraction from a persons duty to the Imperium'. As such there would be standing by-laws and ambiguous lines of holy canon that keep it a hot topic (just look at this thread and it could be used for scapegoating someone in exactly the same way as any other excuse the Imperium comes up with.

Money can't buy you love: But it sure as heck can buy you a lot of religious dispensation. As has been mentioned before, the Aristocracy are an odd lot...

There are numerous theories about the origins of homosexuality and the positive value of non-breeding members of a community in sharing the load when it comes to child-rearing and teaching, but I feel they are far too 'progressive' to apply to something like the Imperium. Those in disagreeance might like to play Blue Rose RPG

ahahaha Blue Rose rpg, NICE!!!

Sergeant Brother said:

One thing to note here is that the Sisters of Battle are NOT a celibate order (if the Cain novels are anything to go by... I might be wrong; I'm just going by secondhand knowledge here), and the only reason for Space Marines to be celibate is because they are literally incapable of sexual desire anyway.

I don't think that they are incapable of it, but it is probably pretty much lost under all that hypno-indoctrination and what not, but if they have functional genetalia then they "urges", its a vital part of being human, humanoid and even alien in a lot of cases. Heemmm suddenly having that love struck marine hanging about might be an annoyance hehe, sorry just had a brain fart there on how to annoy the crap out of a female player in my group (sorry that was OT).

I don't think its sad at all that this topic is being discussed. So much of the 40k background is filled in for us that when a hole in the fluff exists its bound to be discussed.

I mean the Empire is pretty much the worst of humanity rolled up in one. Racist, warmongering, religiously intolerant bigots who run around killing anything that doesn't agree with their concept of a perfect society. The fact that they've been driven to this point is what makes 40k fun, that how far will you subconsiously allow yourself to go, through your characters to embrace this regime of hatred. The fact that even in make believe you can go beyond certain socially acceptable points makes some people rather squimish. Its what WoD was supposed to be like when it came out, before it became all Emo.

So when you're discussing a intolerant police society with very inflexible mindset, it stands to reason that something like homosexuality which throughout history has been either embraced or condemned with equal passion, when thrust into a game about being intolerant, at what stage of history is the Empire at on this very pivotal point.

Race, Creed, Religion.. all very much matter inside the Imperium... what about sexuality... that's the last remaining question left unanswered, and historically has been the last remaining part of human societies that have shown intolerance and down right hatred and bigotry.

Captain_Leandros said:

Well as far as Dark Heresy is concerned they may not be celibate but they are chaste. PG 41, The Inquisitors Handbook, under Sororitas Characters.

"Adepta Soritas are courageous, piuos, self-sacrificing, CHASTE, and faithful."

Emphasis mine.

But you can have chaste sex with any adepta sororitas as long as it´s a chaste intercourse (abstaining from enjoining it ).

By the way, Imperium culture is big enough to encompass any kind of sexual desire. The eclesiarchy have their own "radicals" and "puritans" and preachers tend to adapt the emperor´s credo to the local culture, so even in the same planet, Acreage* for example, the sexual desires of the PCs would be seen as normal, deviant, lustfull or even illicit.

*Acreage is said to hold a wide range of diferent cultures and states.

I don't find this discussion sad at all. What I do find sad is that GW generally avoids dealing with matters of a clear sexual nature, and yet they still have daemonettes and scantily clad eye candy (Dark Elves anyone) because it sells. Also all this discussion has convinced me to track down the Ciaphas Cain books, the first three seem to be out of print.

Hey Xan, I didn't say it was sad that we where talking about it au contraire, what I said is that its a wonderful setting for biggotry and that it allows us to show the very worst of humanity, what I think is sad is some people shying away from the subject by trying to make it "PC". As someone else said just a few posts ago, "the Empire is all the worst of humanity". I like that fact that we are talking about this, actually I wanted to throw out some BIG hugs for the way this has been handled by the boards as well, everyone behaving like mature adults, so rare on the interwebs, you make an old man cry with happy.

Brighteyes said:

Ah but there is an excellent omnibus edition which includes several short stories from Inferno? One of which is very relevant to a later novel.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100181048&type=Book

enjoy - I did

yeah GW dances around sex - possibily due to the target audience for the TT game ?

sooo another reference for you

from another Cain novel - "For the Emperor" - p39-40

He was gettin quite emotional. Ibegan to suspect that there had been more than a simple line of command relationship between him (the Ships Captain) and one of the dead provosts...........

Amberely then comments - Cain is correct in this assumption . Strictly against regulations but then boys will be boys

The universe is mostly referred to as Warhammer 40Gay, after all

I think the arguement the homosexuality is repressed in the Imperium is erroneous. For the simple reason that we are approaching it from a very 21st century perspective. Racism is less of an issue these days (a certain inauguration ceremony in the next 24hrs proves that) not to say that it doesnt still exist but I believe homosexuality faces more of a social stigma in western society comparitively speaking. My illustration for this would be the army. Race isnt an issue there in term so recruitment. Being openly gay probably is.

I also dont see the logic in an arguement that says the Imperium represents everything thats worst about humanity. Thats abit lop sided. It also represents the best. Consider the sacrifice and heroism. Those are some of the reasons we all love the genre/background. I find it kinda weird that a brutal dictatorship would discriminate against gay men/women but not against ethnic minorities. Surely an area of more easy prejudice should be the colour of peoples skin. Its more obvious than what people get up to in bed.

The Imperium is also so impossibley vast the the number of cultures and socities will also be too numerous to count. With worlds not receiveing imperial contact for millenia at a time whole nations of bigots and free liberal socities would be born and die. Whilst I freely agree that there will be whole worlds given over to nazi death camps with imperial zealots preaching against sodomy I put it to this forum that there is just as likley to be just as many who arent. If you want an alternative society within the 40k universe that isnt the same as the male dominated hegemony then you need look no further than House Escher in Necromunda. No one bats an eyelid at that. Are the ecclesiarchy burning down the hive to stop these "abominations" who dont fit with the stereotypical image of the imperial family? No.

I also dont see anything in the litertuare that says "we must breed" and if your not breeding your a deviant. Thats not to say that there wont be worlds like that but I'm thinking of the overall picture. Are the infertile/sterile people stoned to death in the street? No. What does the ecclesiarchy want? More people is good but the imperium has vast numbers, its the most populace indigenous species in the galaxy. Numbers has never been the issue. I'd say its quality. With the great crusade did the Emeror command everyone to have "sex for victory"? No, instead he came up with the marines. What does that say about the fertility ethos of the imperium? Do we venerate woman who have 45 kids............or do we create an elite cadre of superhuman men who have a total disinterest in sex.

Maybe the REAL question we should ask ourselves is what the Emperors/ High council of terras view on it is? Surely something as important as the supposed "moral" corruption of the imperium at large would be tackled by these powerful individuals. Have any edicts ever existed that said homosexuality is against the emperor? No.

All I know is this, if I was standing next to a space marine on the field of battle hewould NOT care what sexual preference I had or my skin colour, or how many children I had, or what sex I was, or how many limbs I had. He would only ask me two questions:

"Do you acknowledge the Emperor as your god and the saviour of mankind?" and "Are you willing to die for him?"

if the answer is yes to both then he would smile and yell:

"then forward my brother to VICTORY IN THE EMPERORS NAME!"

*cue sound of bolter fire*

I like to think that I've experienced pretty much every facet of 40K fiction/fluff that I can, and that leads me to think that most of the Imperium who would care about these things simply cannot be bothered to actually care. Not unless something happens that brings the offense fresh to mind, anyway. Truly, it's actually hard to say, really.

On the smaller scale, most Imperial cultures would likely mirror a slightly more dogmatic version of present Earth cultures. Whether or not homosexuality is "wrong" or not probably depends highly on which part of the 'endless cycle' ( the old: it's bad -> ok, now it's blase' ->now it's once again all the rage to denounce it -> yeah....it's been long enough we don't care anymore) the interests of the populace are at.

As for the inter-planetary government at large, the Imperium just seems to lethargic to care unless you shove it in their face. I can readily see all but the most gung-ho Ecclesiarchs hearing about a chaos worshipping group on their planet thinking, "Oh, bother. Another evil cult to fight. Do you think we could make it someone else's problem, it's so much work to get them all, and i'm so busy doing other things........."

Da Boss said:

enjoy - I did

yeah GW dances around sex - possibily due to the target audience for the TT game ?

Thanks, that is very helpful, I allready ordered it, and yeah the target audience for the TT is the reason that flat out dealing with sex is a no no, showing cleavage and nice curves on the other hand is no problem, kind of like mainstream media really. I still find it a bit annoying even if I understand the reasons for this.

Also I really do not think that the Empire is the worst of humanity, I think the Empire is humanity teetering on the edge. I am a very open minded liberal left leaning individual, however my love for the WH40K stems from how often I feel that the authoritarian goverment is the only way that mankind can survive at this point in time, any destabilisation can unfortunately slide mankind into oblivion. At the same time the setting also shows us how much more man can be, courage, valor, honor, sacrifice and even mercy in some cases, Eisenhorn protecting the mutants of Tharga IV springs to mind.

Excepting Chaos influenced, is there any humanity outside of the Empire?

Letrii said:

Yes. In fact the majority of humanity exists outside of the Imperium. Before the Age of Strife, Humanity spread to tens of millions of worlds. Now the Imperium covers just 1 million worlds.

The nature of those human cultures though remains undefined...

Is there any literature giving details for Age of Strife and Dark Age of Technology?

Outside the range of the Astronomicon, navigators can't accurately pilot through the immaterium, right? Does that mean people beyond have to only use known safe routes or stay in realspace?

I would have thought there are uncontacted planets on the rim or below the main galactic plain? Perhaps even small empires, plus those who are cut off from the rest of the Imperium by warp storms that have not sucumbed to Chaos as yet................

Some might be sufficently advanced to remain cut off through choice / technology

nice curves on the other hand is no problem, kind of like mainstream media really. I still find it a bit annoying even if I understand the reasons for this. Also I really do not think that the Empire is the worst of humanity, I think the Empire is humanity teetering on the edge. I am a very open minded liberal left leaning individual, however my love for the WH40K stems from how often I feel that the authoritarian goverment is the only way that mankind can survive at this point in time, any destabilisation can unfortunately slide mankind into oblivion. At the same time the setting also shows us how much more man can be, courage, valor, honor, sacrifice and even mercy in some cases, Eisenhorn protecting the mutants of Tharga IV springs to mind.

More reasons why you should like the Cain stories - they are a little lighter than mainstream 40k but also happy to bring in a bit more adult situations (or allusions to same).

Although Gaunts Ghosts also have plenty of sex (again if mostly "of screen") - even Gaunt !!

Letrii said:

These might help

www.scribd.com/doc/7027523/Warhammer-40K-Fluff-Bible

warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Strife

As for what happens beyond the Astronomican?

Well, technically, part of the Imperium actually exists beyond it...the eastern spirals out where Ultramar holds sway - the eastern 'fringe' of the Segmentum Ultima out beyond the Maelstrom and the Gates of Varl into the Ghoul Stars and the Centaurus Arm of the galaxy...

Essentially beyond the Imperium is pretty much open season for you to make up what you want.