Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

Hmm... i think "Ask not the Adeptus Mechanicus to lumin charge thy validus lepus*" might rank up there somewhere.

Not so much a sexual prohibition, more of a common sense thing. Especially given the rampant foamyness of some techpreists..

*very loose translation.

Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

If it's all about breeding and "reproductive duty" what about other people who aren't in "breedable" relationships? Couples where one is infertile or younger men who have a thing about older women? Isn't that "pleasure outside of the natural cycle of life"? Thinking further what about birth control?

I can imagine a world with a real population problem stating that every fertile adult has a duty to the God Emperor to produce a certain number of offspring. However extending that to persecute men who fancy other men and not men who fancy older women or even men who just fancy the practising part of reproduction rather than reproduction itself just doesn't seem to fly with me. It's illogical to pick on only one segment of the non-breeders, unless of course it's driven by some local religious dogma, but that's got nothing to do with the Imperium and wouldn’t be an "Imperial Standard".

ClockworkGecko said:

Cheers mate.

I try wherever possible to think about how things might have developed in 40K...

As for the sexual needs of the IG...well...hmm. Perhaps they have 'comfort' battallions. Entire cadres of the army who's troops (men and women) are there for the sexual gratification of the front line fighters. Not only that they would be producing children to maintain the IG numbers...

Not a very pleasant thought but very 40K.

IIRC they also practicse the colonisation idea that successful veteran units were assigned control of planets (or parts of same) and encouraged to enrich the native population with their presumably superior genes?

bit like the roman empire used to set up veteran colonies with their soldiers.

As I understand it most armies in history tend to develop extended communities around them - including wives and children of the fighting men (women). most would be non-combantants - others less so.......there may or may be stigma attached to the children. Somethimes they will be viewed as the children of Heroes - others less so........

It would also make an interesting background package?

Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

I've been intrigued by the notion of "norms" in imperial society. With such a vast, galaxy spanning imperium, the "norms" vary form sector to sector as well as world to world. I think that when it comes to sexuality the only reason the Inquisition would bother to care about one's pleasures would be seek out instances daemophilia and/or xenophilia. From the point of view of the Inquisition, as many others have pointed out in this thread, as long as the gears of the imperium keep turning, then there would little or no notice of sexual orientation.

Velvetears said:

Did a quick perusal of the chemgeld 'talent'. Adepts get it later but tech-priests and psykers get it right away. For the first, don't know why really. For tech-priests it really makes sense as I would think the fleshy naughty bits would be the first to go. I would think psykers might actually be forcibly sterilized or at least considering their bizarre training might come up with some interesting sexual proclivities.

Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

While homosexuality or other forms of sex sans reproduction probably wouldn't be seen as sinful or immoral in and of them selves, active in-depth pursuit of such acts could definitely be seen as immoral debauchery.

The Imperium strikes me as a place where sodomy would be perfectly fine but lust would be a vice and acting on it would be a weakness (weak being the worst thing one could be in the Imperium). So, if one were to have a fancy for young boys and indulge it now and again in a discrete manner that dose not interfere with ones duties, all fine and good. But if one were to allow ones duties to suffer for the pursuit of young boys, then there would be problems.

The Imperium is a war culture and, as such, sees everything as a struggle, as obstacles that must be conquered and controlled or eradicated. This mindset works just as well for the big picture of mankind vs. the universe as it dose for the small intimate picture of man vs. self. I see the Impirum as encouraging self-control on all fronts (except for maybe rabid hatred for ones enemies... get carried away with that one ;-) ). One should never be lead by their passions and emotions but must be the one to lead them. Thus lusting for something is inviting weakness and a failure to control ones self. That would be what is seen as bad and not the act that said individual was lusting over. That view of lust probably extends beyond sex to all things one could lust or crave to the detriment of their duties. That would explain quite nicely why certain drugs such as obscura are Illegal with a capital I and involve the Arbitrators.

While love and lust do exist and always will, generally speaking, on the surface, sex would be seen and dealt with in a very utilitarian way. If you have to do it, just get it done and over with (optimally in 10 minutes or less) so you can get on with your duties undistracted.

In Rebel Winter the Vostroyan First Born are more or less required to "mate" with the hopes of impregnating their partner before they leave the world for Imperial Guard service.

I imagine the Imperium would highly recommend and prefer sexual relationships that allow the planets to meet their required tithe of soldiers for the Guard units they raise and send out.

I dont think they would bother to care if anyone was homosexual or not, as long as they engaged in periodic reproduction so they can have more soldiers, factory workers and so forth.

But that really depends. Perhaps the Imperial Creed sees it as an unnatural lust, something the Slaneeshi cultists engage in and purge those who do? Or maybe they dont? I can see it going both way.

I think it is one of the things the GW rightfully avoids discussing. They are just trying to sell fiction and miniatures, not be a political platform.

Afterall, Id be greatly upset if they would publish a comic book in the 40K setting with a space marine captain doing the fist bump with Obama.

Unfortunately, Marvel comics has no such problem doing just that with Spider Man.

I'm not sure what to think about this, but I will say that many of the responces so far have been a bit too PC. This is the opressive grim darkness of the far future we're talking about here, political correctness is not something that the Imperium is going to be worried about.

Part of me agrees that sexuality wouldn't be a big deal in the Imperium. When you have aliens, heretics, mutants, demons, rogue psykers, etc to worry about nobody is going to really care about sexuality. Anybody with half a brain is going to realise that sexuality isn't all that important when you have far more serious problems to deal wih. Nobody's going to care if you're gay if your helping to defend humanity from the forces that wish to destroy us.

I can just as easily agree with it beeing seen as something related to Slaanesh worship. The Imperium is a suspiscious, and paranoid place. People are constantly living in fear, and any behavior that is strange, unusual, or suspicious in some way will probably be reported to somebody in authority who can do something about it, I'd even immagine that people are encouraged to report such things. To certain Inquisitors, or other people with knoledge about the Chaos gods, same sex relationships might be seen as a sign of belonging to a Slaaneshi cult, and as such people who engage in those activities would be rounded up by the Inquisition and eliminated before their ways can spread and corrupt more Imperial citizens.

As far as we know, the official Imperial religion is not concerned with morality or sins as we know them today, if at all. It is a religion based on giving thanks to the Emperor for his continuing sacrifice to protect humanity from the threats that seek to destroy it. It is possible that it does include commandments, or guidlines on how to live, but there is no mention that I know of about what would be considered a sin or immoral behavior in the Imperium.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Seriously? Please tell me you're kidding about that.

If only I could say I made that up. But alas, I can not.

Some very good points in this thread; the Imperium doesn't care what floats your boat (or rocks it) as long as your duties are fulfilled although some worlds might be inclined to lob your head off. The Imperium is huge and even today the world is divided on this subject.

Interesting points, but most don't answer my actual question. I am not interested in how people perceive the setting, I am interested in actual instances where homosexuality is mentioned and dealt with in the 40K fiction. Personally I think I see the matter the way Luddite and Graver do, it's not a matter of being PC, I think pragmatism is what the Creed is all about, most of the time.

Anyway, thank you for the replies from Da Boss and Peacekeeper_b, carry on the argument.

Brighteyes said:

Ah right. OK.

Hmmm...

Well, as far as i'm aware, outside of Ciphias Cain's dalliances, and a bit of sexual tension between Eisenhorn and Bequin (?) there's barely been any references to heterosexual relations, let along and homosexual stuff.

That said, theres a subtext of homoerotic or possibly, 'Classical Greek' androphilia among the marines in the Horus Heresy novels (or is that just me), and the Goliath gang in Necromunda is stuffed to the gunwhales with 'Village People'...

But in over two decades of trawling through GW material, i can't recall any direct homosexuality. So....its all open to debate!

Luddite said:

in Warhammer 40,000 the wargame you had or have these Ork units who walk around in uniforms and leather pants and big hats and stuff .. they were pretty Village People-like

Da Boss said:

This is the only direct example I can think of. It is clear that Sergeant Grifen and trooper Magot are lovers and no one seems interested or concerned in any way. In fact, they seem either blessed by the Emperor or are supremely lucky, as they are the only ones who survive a certain death scenario.

Evilscary said:

When has the Ecclesiarchy been tolerant of anything.... ever?!?

Our group has had a fair bit of experience in this area; our characters have spanned basically the entire spectrum (LGBT) and in general the rest of the imperium seems not to care.
That being said our GM never hesitates to have a random bar patron make ignorant comments, or haves us walk by a mob that is denigrating/burning/beating a group of gay citizens.

The important thing to think is “how can this make the game more interesting?” In our current group the female void-born scum is Bisexual, this has both helped us
(Charming a nobleman’s daughter for information and favours) and harmed us
(Getting the nobleman angry at us when he learned his daughter likes girls).

A character’s orientation is like everything else, it can be used to make the game more fun.

After reading most of the posts, I think that Heterosexuality would be promoted, at least in order to continue to provide bodies for the meat grinder. Any world that has a tithe for the Imperial Guard is going to want as many bodies as possible, and those who don't contribute to the tithe are in some ways going to be seen as not supporting the Empire.

That said, I don't think homosexuality would be directly illegal to Imperial Law. I just don't see Arbitrators kicking down doors of a homosexual couple and arresting them for homosexuality. Maybe world law enforcers would, if its against world law, but I just don't think the Arbitrators care, and they would if it was against Imperial Law.

Now the Ecclesiarchy would be intolerant of it, simply because it wasn't promoting the proper tithe to the Emperor. Now as long as the homosexuals were still breeding and providing bodies for the Empire, then I don't think the Ecclesiarchy really cares. My guess is that they preach against it, harang against it, but in the end ignore it as long as whoever it is, is providing something to the Emperor.

That said, I can see it being used as a charge if the person in question messes up and is charged with something. Probably worded in such a way to say that since Homosexuals don't breed, they are not contributing enough to the Emperor.

But fortunatly the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy don't always get along. Personally I don't think most Inquisitors really care, as long as you're not a heretic, alien, or mutant. I don't see homosexuality being a heresy, so most Inquisitors wouldn't give a ****, and would hire based on skills, and couldn't care less what you did with your free time, as long as you weren't commiting heresy. Some members of the Ecclesiarchy would have problems with it, but hell you have members of the Ecclesiarchy trying to KILL Inquisitors, so nothing new here.

Course you have exceptions, but then Inquisitors are always a broad lot.

So no its not a heresy, its not against Imperial Law, so Inquisitors probably don't give a ****. The Ecclesiarchy cares probably, but then with them everything is bad, unless it promotes themselves, their ambitions, oh yeah and the Emperor.

I think homosexuality especially males, is un warhammery. It brings to mind too much sillyness. Like a whole chapter of gay space marines, called the rainbow legion. The Chaiplan is now a naughty priest, and the brother marines live out some gay marine barracks fantasy. And i imagine a group of gay acolytes would end up looking like 40k version of the villiage people.

The Mechanicus would oil up his body, The acolyte plays the innocent prep school boy, the assassin is a leatherman, the feral world soldier is a trucker bear LOL

I think the only way warhammer and homosexual is of any interest is to homosexual players. For a hetro sexual gaming group, you will A: gross them out, B: make them laugh, C: unless their hot lesbian chicks, bore them to death.

Being the ellesiarchy is the roman catholic church on gothic steroids with bolters and battle nuns. I imagine take the roman catholic church stance on homosexuality and 40k-a-fy it.

Necronomicus said:

Obviously, it stands to reason that there's way more legitimate role playing in heterosexuality.

No but seriously, wtf?

Lord Kruge said:

How people view sexuality is a cultrual based phenomenon, meaning that different cultures look different on homosexuality. Different planets has different cultures. Some worlds are overcrowded while some does not have more then a small colony.

Lord Kruge said:

I thought that the Imperium tried to stir up a little trouble as possible when the colonized a world? Leave the culture alone as much as possible as long as their faith is in something that at least resembles to the Emperor.

Lord Kruge said:

Still, we are prospering and growing on our little planet as does most spieces that have individuals that are homosexuals (unless humans are trying to kill them of course and as long as it is not gays doing the killing that has nothing to do with homosexuality). I have a hard time seeing that the imperium prohibits homosexuality because of evolutionary issues. That it was trying to reproduce as fast as possible so it could grow. The IG is made up of people that are part of a planets tithe which means that the number of conscripts are based on how many men a planet are suppose to be able to recruit and train. The number is fixed and based on that planets population and resources, not on how high the reproduction rate should be or can be. As long as the companies are trained and ready at the apointed time I don't think that the Imperium has any issue with who you choose to share you bed with.

Necronomicus said:

Yeah 'cause all gays like to dress up and dance to bad disco...*sarcasm* I think Marines and especially the Mechanicus are way beyond temptations of the flesh. I have a NPC Magos who used to be bisexual but that's just a memory and doesn't impact his actions in any way, it just came up in a conversation and made my players go "okay...". Using sexuality or the absence thereof adds just a human touch to the scene or you could use it for simple fun but the latter should be used carefully or the story will devolve into a rancid slapstick.

As for the original question I remember there was a little scene in Scourge the Heretic where a woman in an elevator made an obscene gesture towards an acolyte that signified he was into his own gender because he didn't respond to her the way she liked. All forms of sexuality must be present in the Imperium for it to be a logical setting but most of the fluff steers well clear of those issues which IMO is a good thing as people are already crying about black characters *rolls eyes*

My feelings about Necronomicus post are best summed up by:

Graspar said:

However I would have commented with more hate and flames, so I'ld better not.

Do you think Scourge the Heretic is worth the read? Also what book are those two lesbian troopers from?

I don't think that the Imperium would object to homosexuality from the standpoint of population increases. There are numerous people in the Imperium who take vows of celibacy or something equivalent - Sisters of Battle, some clerics, Space Marines, some tech priests get chem gelds, etc. Obviously, if its for the right cause then not having children is fine by the Imperium. Furthermore, though out much of history in places where same gender sex was tolerated (like ancient Greece) people were still expected to marry and have children.

I think that the Imperium, or at least elements with the Imperium like the Ecclesiarchy, would frown on homosexuality because they would view it as an act of pure sexual hedonism and debauchery. Even though pleasure and desire is a huge component of heterosexual relationships, I think that they would say that heterosexual sex is primarily for procreation and therefore has a function aside from just sensual pleasure. But to engage in acts for no other reason but for sexual pleasure - such as homosexuality or even heterosexual sex acts that aren't conducive to procreation (though such would be more tolerated and easier to hide) is getting dangerously close to Slaanesh.

Also, I see the Imperium as a combination of many of the least tolerant societies in human history - they have certain Nazi elements, certain Soviet elements, certain of the worst aspects of medieval Catholicism, etc. In this case, it seems to me (personally, in my opinion) to be thematically appropriate and have the Ecclesiarchy at least condemn sexual behavior in a similar way that medieval Catholicism or Puritans might have - meaning they would not like homosexuality, not like sex for reasons beyond procreation, not like infidelity, etc. Not for pragmatic reasons, but for moralistic reasons. As we can see, the Imperium often does impractical things because of their strange moral or religious beliefs, just like we see in the real world.

I was discussing a hetrosexual view on the matter. If the players and GM are BI and Homosexual, then of course it would be "serious" or "romantic"

I played in a DnD game for over 10 years with a male homosexual GM and beside his boyfirend as a fellow player at the table. I even lived with them for a while as a roomate. While we thought they were great people, and good friends (the other players, the heterosexual ones) We always joked about their bedroom antics. Found homosexual male romance and sexuality to be gross, weird, or don't want to think about it. Or outright silly funny to us. I found the emotional setiment of love and passion touching. But the somantics of the homosexual lifestyle repugnant at worst, and comical at best.

In all the years of our gaming, even as a homosexual GM, he never used plots or characters that focused on homosexual lifestyle or romance. In fact there was little to no romance or sexual relations in the game ever. It was Glory, Adventure, kill the bad guys, and we did roleplay deeply. We were all wanna be thespians.

My view on the Imperiums take on homosexuality stands. Its counter productive to breeding, every citizen must breed if possible. And its a doorway to the decadent embrace of Slaanesh. The ellesicarchy is the roman catholic church in space, and to model the homosexual debate on the current roman catholic church stance would be the most accurate guide to how its percieved in 40k.

I have friends that are homosexuals, lived with them. laughed with them, had fun and gamed. But yes homosexual love acts to me are hilarious, the idea of 2 men wrestling eachother down in the dark grunting like pigs is gross, but funny. If I was at your game. I'm sure I wouldnt be invited. I would never get past the gross but funny perception of it. Your passionate and tragic love affair of 2 men in 40k would be lost on me, as I come up with the next potty joke. As a GM consider your audience aka your players. Is this going to entertain? If so, by all means go for it. I just thought I would offer up an opinion on the value of adding such a story element to a game, if the game is your typical hetrosexual gaming group. I don't know what kind of group you have. Sounds like a wild bunch. Could be fun.