I was just thinking about this because I am considering starting a new campaign where two of the characters are likely to be male homosexuals. From my understanding, how homosexuality is treated and tolerated would work according to the characters origin, however I am wondering if anyone has noticed anything specific in the Imperial Creed and Eclesiarchy texts and edicts.

Nothing I recall off hand in official texts - however there is a lesbian couple in the 597th Valhallan Regiment and no one seems remotely bothered or interested - including their Commissar..................... (Caves of Ice) so it is unlikely to be "proscribed"

"From my understanding, how homosexuality is treated and tolerated would work according to the characters origin,

sounds about right to me .......

That actually helps a bunch.

Openly vulger acts of sexuality would be looked at for the most part with disdain, but then again Noble families are an ofdd lot.

When in doubt, make it and issue, make the characters think the planet they're on is ramapnt with Slaaneshi cults.

This approach would work best if the characters are not from the world itself and dont realise that the open displays of love between same sex couples is merely their interpretation of some obscure passing comment the Emperor made over 15k years ago when visiting the system..

I think this appeared in a thread back on the old FFG boards.

The general opinion was "Depends on which world you're from". Some worlds might be close to ancient Sparta and be all for homosexuality, some might be nazi-esque fascist worlds where such acts are considered illegal.

Generally I think that the Ecclesiarchy don't really care; the cult of the Emperor seems reasonably tolerant towards all forms of sexuality.

Evilscary said:

Actually, my interpretation is that they're intolerant of EVERYTHING, which mean's they're not too focused on sexuality. Of course, this varies from planet to planet, sect to sect, and priest to priest.

I just imagine a priest ranting for hours, frothing at the mouth, pounding the lectern, preaching against the evils of mutation, insufficient faith in the Emperor, doctrinally incorrect faith in the Emperor, bright clothing, failing to donate most of your belongings to the church, trading with xenos and rogue traders, sexual deviancy, drunkenness, decadence, cowardice, failure to condemn friends and family members for mutation and heresy, failure to produce 10 strong children to serve in the Imperial Guard, the eating of meat on the holy day of Saint Ossius the Emaciated, and so on and so forth.

I would think it would be tolerated or at least ignored. It is hard to miss the overtones in the Horus Heresy books where the humans virtually worship the Astarte and Gavriel practially fawns over the godlike perfection of the Primarchs like a lovestruck schoolgirl.

Aside from accurate, stock, but not very helpful 'it depends' answer, i think this is an interesting subject - tied up again in the near complete dearth of information on Imperium society.

OK, so, fertility and breeding is going to be highly important on almost every world in the Imperium.

With endless war, losses must be replaced.

Colonial worlds will have had (un)official programs from their inception (100's or 1000's of years earlier) to populate these new or rediscovered worlds.

So im my opinion procreation and sex will be a community duty, something blessed and holy. I just don't see the Christian guilt thing taking hold here. Its tied up with concepts of family etc., again which we have no official detail on...

So when it comes to sexuality, you have an environment where sexual practices are encouraged, where shame, guilt, repression, etc. concerning sex are largely anathema, but where sex is directed towards producing children.

Therefore i see no problem with homosexuality being openly accepted, but perhaps the Imperium would see it as the duty of homosexuals to procreate, perhaps taking a wife/husband as an Imperial duty while maintaining same sex relations to meet their other needs.

I don't think homosexuals are going to have as much of a hard time throughout most of the Imperium as they do in our western society today.

'Homophobia, the worst disease, you can't love who you want to love in times like these'...

It also has to be remembered that sexual orientation and preference, while biologically derived, is also culturally influenced. Here i'd point to the cultural pederasty of the Ancient Greeks as an example, or martial homosexuality among Alexander's Macedonian phalanx...

So it may well be that in many Imperial cultures homosexuality is encouraged, while in others its ruled by bigotry and ignorance and punishable by death.

Form a general Imperial standpoint though, i see no 'official' (Adepta) stance of sanction, other than the requirements for fecundity and procreation i discussed above.

It does of course then raise interesting questions about the nature of 'family' in the Imperium...

Along those lines, and cross posting threads, in one of the Dune books there was a dissertation about the Fedyakeen being homosexual as since they were unable to reproduce in such a hostile environment with a high mortality rate, becoing shock/suicide troops was a way they could give back to the community. I think it was is God Emperor where this also applied to the Fish Speakers.

In my humble opinion, many of the ideas expressed in this thread are rather PC. The Imperium of Man is meant to be an opressive place. Just about any act of overt sexuality is looked down upon as sinful and evil. In my opinion this includes homosexuality. The Imperial Creed is a religion that plays the Crystal Dragon Jesus trope to a T. The desires of the flesh are evil and the flesh is to be mortified. Sex is for procreation and nothing else. In my interpretation, homosexuality is demonized and denounced by the Ecclesiarchy as evil and a sighn of chaos worship (Slaanesh anyone), Attitudes vary from planet to planet, of course but when the Ecclesiarchy carries out their purges, people accused of sodomy and lesbianism are burned right next to the witches and mutants. Not that this stops anyone, the Nobility are a strange lot. Not to mention the Ecclesiarchs themselves......

This is the way I run it and my players agree. Making the Imperium tolerant of something like that, when they are so blatantly intolerant of everything else, smacks of injecting Political Correctness into a setting that is decidedly un-PC. For the record, I am not a homophobe. I just think that having the Imperium oppress homosexuals fits the tone of the setting.

Torque2100 said:

Perhaps. Mine were certainly intended to be logically derived from a pragmatic approach that i'd see deriving from planetary colonisation.

PC? Perhaps, but not intended so.

Torque2100 said:

Fair enough. I don't disagree, but why?

Torque2100 said:

Well, that makes sense and is certainly an interpretation (as is mine or anyone elses).

Torque2100 said:

Indeed! the first tenet of the clergy 'do as i say, not as i do'...

Luddite said:

Indeed, one of the campaign suggestions for Inquisitor involved covering up the fact that an Ecclesiarch is a pedophile.

I would agree with the others, the whole homosexual thing seems to be accepted by the adapta. I can see there being some hard liners in the Ministorum here and there that will preach out against the wasting of seed that could eventually be another strong solder for the God Emperor or some worlds suffering under a high Guardsman Tithe where homosexuality would be persecuted (the time they selfishly wasted having sex with another of the same sex was time and energy, and possibly seed that could have been used to produce another much needed guardsmen to fill the next quota).

As for the question Ludite brought up about family unites in the Imperium, it, to the chagrin of most I'm sure, seems to be another planet by planet thing. I've read many mentioning of standard family units as we know them today, instances of extended family units under one roof (agri-worlds a lot of the time), as well as more exotic types such as the communal nurseries in the Perseus Hive on Olympas (Thoriean Sourcebook). As irritating as it is, this might be another planet by planet situation.

Luddite said:

And, Ludite, what in the Imperium, exactly, isn't ruled by bigotry and ignorance and punishable by death? ;-)

Torque2100 said:

Is the Imperium oppressive, or are the cultures that comprise the Imperium oppressive.

IMO, the Imperial is better described as brutally indifferent to the minutia of everyday life, rather than oppressive - there are too many people in the Imperium to adequately oppress, afterall. So long as people are being born (something that's unlikely to ever stop happening - consider that the Imperium has before demonstrated a willingness to systematically sterilise, imprison and deport the entire population of a major hive world and then ship in a new population, just to prevent a chaotic taint from potentially spreading after an invasion), tithes are paid (people aren't enough by themselves - they need to be on the farms, in the factories, on the battlefields and generally contributing to the Imperium) and the Enemies of Man are opposed, the Imperium doesn't actually care who you are, what you do or why you do it.

Individuals and local cultures within the Imperium may have different opinions in that regard, of course, but from the perspective of the Adeptus Terra, a human being is barely even recognised as a single number on a single page of one amongst untold trillions of ledgers in one of millions of archives scattered across the Imperium.

I think Luddite really hit the nail on the head with the importance of procreation. Vat-grown clones seem to be a touchy subject when it comes to Tech-Heresy, which leaves the old-fashioned way of getting trillions of troops to the front line - a whole lot of intercourse. The idea that you shouldn't pop out kids you can't support would be non-existent. Even given the varying societies in place on different worlds, there is always the tithe. As far as I recall, the only real feral or low-tech world that GW covers in any detail is Fenris, which of course applies to nothing since it belongs to the Space Wolves.

I think we place a little too much stock in the "depends on what world you're from" answer. I think the influence of the Imperium would significantly alter aspects of a culture simply by it's presence. Pick any historical culture or society from any time period and then try to figure how they would deal with the Imperium. For example, what would the Aztec culture have been like? Simply replace getting your heart torn out on an altar to being sent to the Imperial Guard, or would something much more interesting and complex happen? The Tithe as a transformative agent on a culture shouldn't be overlooked.

Of course, the problem is that no one at GW has ever cared about what goes on behind the pretty pictures or even if the whole thing makes sense at all, so they keep drawing pictures and have a hundred different authors write basically on their own and we're left trying to fill in the blanks.

As far as the specific topic of homosexuality, the biggest problem is that it's an evolutionary dead end. Whether it is allowed or proscribed depends on genes vs. behavior (yes, as well as what world you're from ). I could easily see elements of the Imperium seeing genetic homosexuality as a form of mutation, one that leads to pleasure outside the natural cycle of life, purely for pleasure's sake - ie. tantamount to being born in service of Slaanesh.

Then again, if as Luddite suggested, a homosexual does their reproductive duty to the Imperium, who cares what kinds of recreation they enjoy - well besides the Witch Hunters, that is.

I could also see a planetary governor thinking "Hmm, homosexuality is running about 10% of the population, what's our tithe again? 10%? Hey, how about that. Keep the breeders breeding and send the rest off to glory. Works for me. Get the Ministorum on the Vox, I need a new Ecclesiarchical Bull."

Keeping the population numbers up might be one reason on feral worlds perhaps but overpopulation seems the norm rather than the exception.

Not sure about the 'family' angle. The needs of the state supercede the family in virtually everything - from turning in psykers, to tithing children not the least of which would be the generall horrific life of the faceless throngs. Essentially as long as the state gets its ore, goods, food, psykers and military personell I can't see why it would care about sex in general. For example, if families and children were so important, don't you thinkg hives would have better socialized medicine?

However if you want to say that since the Imperium oppresses everything else and why not sex, then how does it regulate heterosexual relationships? Prostitution illegal? Is polygamy allowed or even encouraged? Contraception illegal? Minimum child requirement?

The Imperium wouldn’t be as much fun unless it was stamping the iron jackboot of oppression on some poor minorities throat.

IMO the majority of the Imperial universe would be fairly intolerant of any behaviour that deviated from ‘the norm’, unless of course you have the power/money to get away with it. That said its more than probable there would be certain worlds/cultures where homosexuality might be tolerated or even ignored.

You also have to remember to keep an eye out for the Dark Angels

Torque2100 said:

I agree with this completely. I get the feeling that political correctness is a big motivating factor in many opinions here. It would seem to be that any sort of behavior that could be deemed as selfish or hedonistic would be denounced by the Ecclesiarchy and Imperial establishment as a whole - particularly sexual behavior which is closely linked to Slaanesh worship. Even if it is tolerated on some worlds, I think that galactic Imperial culture (that coming from the Ecclesiarchy and Holy Terra) would look down on such worlds and the people who come from them or hold such values. Of course, I could imagine plenty of places or groups who engage in behavior that the mainstream of the Imperium dislikes - decadent nobility, underhive scum, isolated spacecraft, etc.

I just think that making the Ecclesiarchy and other moralistic parts of the Imperium tolerant of homosexuality kinda goes against the feel and flavor of the setting which is supposed to be intolerant, cruel, harsh, judgmental, puritanical, etc.

Funny this subject should come up, I was just thinking about it while reading my DH rulebook.

Here is my take on it from what I've read of the 40k fluff as a whole. I may be going over old ground and preaching to the choir on a lot of this, so please bear with.

I would say that most everyone here has touched on the subject with valid points. I do agree that there is nothing PC about the Imperium. There is oppression, there is tyrany, there is strict edicts that need to be followed. I don't nessesarly agree that people so far have come up with a PC view here. To truly be PC means to fully cater to something. What most everyone has come up in this thread from what I've seen falls along the lines of concepts that keep the show running. Sometimes it may seem to be PC (or even un-PC) but when you look at it, it's there to keep things going in general. But then again noting is fair in the Imperium as well. One of the themes of 40K is that the "jackboot of authoritah" is there. How that jackboot is employed is a matter of what's going on and where.

I think NO-1_H3r3 hit the ultimate nail on the head when it comes to the Imperium, the bottom line is that it is brutally indiffrent to the workings of everyday life. As long as the great needs of the Imperium are met, and there is a general sense of order, the little stuff is insignificant. Because of this it leaves things open to interpretation, and yes a lot of that enterpretation is jackboot policy. 40K is all about grim realities, and perhaps one of the grimmest is that nobody cares. It's not the institution that always makes policy, it's the strongers and/or most vocal within it that do.

In general terms, in the Imperium homosexuality is treated pretty neutrally. Nobody at large is openly for it, or against it, it just happens to be a life choice. Most people probably realize that love between humans knows no bounds and its pretty much up to the individual as to what they want to do with themselves. The general idea is that as long as people keep their affairs to themselves, don't grossly step out of line, try and push them onto others, not in line with something truly criminal or heretical, and overall be respectfull, there isn't anything to worry about. If it goes out of these boundries, then then there could be trouble on hand.

Of course there are quite a few exceptions from places/individuals/institutions in the galaxy that will either be pro or anti homosexuality. The galaxy is a big place and everyone has their own opinion. These stances could be under various circumstances right or wrong with good solid founding, or can also be for entirely bogus reasons as well.

In the military it is probably based with a general mentality of:

Don't Ask - as long as you are going to preform your duty and get along with everyone we don't care nor have a reason to nitpick about you. There are bigger matters on hand.

Don't Tell - You don't have to openly share your sexual orientation you are unless it becomes a matter of inquiry due to something that causes real trouble. If you want to talk about it you can, however you have the right not to talk. In the long run as long as you prefom your duty, we don't care.

Don't Persue - We have to worry too much about protecting the Imperium than to concern ourselves with "rooting out the pooftas" in our units.

Don't Cause Trouble - If your personal behavior in regards to you sexuality becomes a problem or liability then action would be taken just as with any other liabilty you may cause.

Of course there always exceptions to these rules based on a number of factors.

Also it is probably not a long shot to think that the greater fighting force of the Imperial Guard (and others) while on duty is given a regular dose of chemical cocktails which in part cover suppressing sexual urges. Especially when the prospects of "recreational leave" are not given or unavailable. With that a lot of the "problems" with anything sex related are rather low.

Established institutions, Adeptus, and other branches of Imperial and planetary governments are a mixed bag, though overall I see them being more along the lines of the military/general social model. What one does outside of their duty time is entirely up to themselves so long as they don't do something heretical or illegal.

That's about my take on the whole matter. In short you can have tollerence along with the jackboot quite easilly. Again another dark theme.

I do want to finish by giving Luddite a big thumbs up on his views. I agree with you man, it's very well put. I would like to add to the factor of breeding programs for new troops. It wouldn't be a long shot that one of the biggest would be within the military itself. Millions of rowdy Guard need to take care of natures desires, the Empire needs troops for the future, only the best in the long run are in the military, and there are many women in the Imperium who can't or wont fight on the front lines but want to support the effort. Do the math and you come up with a great eugenicly driven program that is just as good as growing clones, yet everything is "natural".

Lord Kruge said:

As far as the specific topic of homosexuality, the biggest problem is that it's an evolutionary dead end. Whether it is allowed or proscribed depends on genes vs. behavior (yes, as well as what world you're from ). I could easily see elements of the Imperium seeing genetic homosexuality as a form of mutation, one that leads to pleasure outside the natural cycle of life, purely for pleasure's sake - ie. tantamount to being born in service of Slaanesh.

Would they even know to label it a mutation? We have to keep two things in mind, first that the imperium is a place where peoples knowledgee about how things work is on the level of praying to a lightbulb and second that mutation has different meanings. The first is the way we use the word. A change to the nucleotide sequence of the genetic material of an organism, something which is both very common and if you go far enough back, the very reason we are no longer single celled organisms. And then there's the warp tainted mutations, the fangs and claws and tentacles and acid blood type of mutants.

I would personally prefer that in a society where people have no cause knowing genetics they label the obvious chaos mutants as mutants and overlook the real mutations. A homosexual would never be put in the same crowd as people with acid blood. Besides, when is genetic homosexuality going to be a problem anyway? It's not exactly a trait that is prone to spreading by nature, and if it does spread it kind of cancels out the reason for finding it bad. That is not producing offspring to inherit the homosexual gene.

No, I say that if you eliminate the judeo-christian moral basis for the creed (which is good) there's no point in banning homosexuality.

Graspar said:

As I GM, I tend to play it that many things considered taboo in our culutre are the norm in the Imperium ( drugs, homsexuality, slavery, prostitution,etc) but other things we would consider harmless or beneficial are their taboos (knowledge, choice, self expression, etc).

I think it would be illegal.

Homosexuals don't breed. Its the duty of a citizen to breed so humanity may flourish. Humanity faces extinction and these deviant decadent slaanesh fodder draw air from good imperial citizens and waste resources.

I think any world where the elisiarchy has presence would make it illegal. Feral worlds and feudal worlds can probally get away with it.

Agmar_Strick said:

I'm with Graspar on this.

Certainly there will be worlds that are facing a population crisis and might drive it's population to breed. Paired with those might be worlds, like parts of our own, that seem strangely pre-occupied with the idea and oppress people for no real practical reason.

Conversely there will also be worlds that, like the Greeks, encourage homosexuality. They provide an example of a military non-Christian society that saw homosexuality as not just something to tolerate but as something that was very positive both militarily and socially.

I suspect though that the majority of worlds really don't care one way or the other. They are neither faced with a population crisis, or are militarily driven or bound in a local (non Imperial Creed) religious dogma for it to be an issue.

Necronomicus said:

Yes they do, they just prefer not to. There's a difference there, why make the entire thing illegal when "get at least 2 children and you're fine" would do. For that matter, do all worlds really suffer from the underpopulation that would actually make this an important point?

Lord Kruge said:

Which is kind of ironic as statistically speaking the more children, the greater chance you have of the later ones being gay.

But since you bring up 'purely for pleasure's sake' - what other sexual prohobitions do you think there would be? Do you think it would go so far as to have some type of breeding camps set up? Then again, considering the near complete disregard for individual human life I just don't see the cycle of life as being that important. It would seem that if all life in the universe were killed and sole occupant of the Imperium were the Emperor it would be deemed a success.