If you have tech use already, is there any need to get trade (technomat), seems like there is a lot of crossover. If there is no use, why is it on the Techpriest list?

1. Having a Trade increases your monthly income (see the IH).

2. I use these things as supplementary skills, e.g., if you are repairing something and succeed in a Technomat roll, you get a +10 on your Tech-Use roll.

3. I assume Technomat includes things relating to actually trading: what kind of machines a community would need, prices for such things, etc.

Hi,

besides the money-value: ask you GM!

Seriously. The DH core rules (and any further publication up to now) failed to give clear examples what this skill is good to.
It all boils down to the point where you GM has to decide how s/he will use it.

I'd say there are tonnes of uses, they just aren't the usual craft ones. Need to repair that cogitator? Hard Tech Use test (since not everyone has Technomat) or Challenging Trade (Technomat). I'd do this to reflect that Tech use (to me) is like having a background in Engineering - you know how machines work, you know the underlying principles of their construction and the laws of physics that govern them. Trade skills represent specific areas of expertise and knowledge that other skills would only partially cover, if they covered them at all.

So while you could accomplish most tasks with Tech Use, they would be at a penalty due to the varied and specialized problems out there. A technomat has been fixing arcane technology for years, and has an understanding of their needs that someone with a general understanding of machines wouldn't. Your Mechanic is going to be far better at fixing cars then an engineer, for example, and as a GM this should be reflected in the test difficulties, and some pieces of machinery should be beyond the general catch-all skills like Tech Use.

Last time this came up, I remember expressing my opinion thusly.

That in basic terms, a Technomat was the equivalent of a modern mechanic. They know the workings of machinery, and can repairs and maintenance, even innovate a little on their own.

But it's those with Tech Use, and the more extensive training that the Mechanicus doles out, who are technicians and engineers, the people who design and build the wonders of technology that the Imperium uses. They have the smarts and the teaching to build plasma weapons, while the best a Technomat might be able to achieve would be simple Las weapons and slug throwers.

Although maybe not 100% by the book, I'd reseve any complex technical knowledge to the "Forbidden Lore - Ad Mech" skill. I'd probably also rule that Tech-Use may be used in more situations by Tech-Priests, than any other classes (since they have the "Forbidden Lore - Ad Mech").

As for the Technomat skill - not much use for it, if you are a Tech-Priest. Hard to see cases where you couldn't just go with the Tech-Use skill instead.

I realise it's not RAW, but I see the difference like the difference between operators and maintainers. We had this distinction in the navy when the radar maintainer would complain that we had broken the radar again , we'd usually reply along the line of:

"That's right, we break it, you fix it, I need it five minutes ago".

Although I knew how to use the radar, track contacts, tune it, and get the best performance from it I didn't have the first scooby about fixing it.

"Leading Electronics Technician, Bridge".

So a possible interpretation, which considers at the terminology of the words 'TRADE' and 'USE' could be:

Forbidden Lore (Ad Mech): I agree with what Mosern said, that this how to design & build complicated & (possibly) dark age stuff like plasma weapons, cogitators, sword class frigates, rhinos, and understanding the principle involved, (Engineering),

Trade - Technomat: Equipment and machinery maintainers, how to fix things, includes understanding some of the principles (Mechanics, Electricians, Radar Maintainers...) 'Trade' type stuff and totally Ad - Mech

Tech Use: Knowledge of how to use machines (anyone who operates machines). The average sap or techno-barbarian can have this without having to understand any of the Ad Mech spooky stuff like why or how it works, just that it does. (This interpretation supports the impresssion I have of 40K where enormous industrial hive factories are mostly run by hordes or people who are not Adeptus Mechanicus)

Once agin, I realise that's not RAW, but I think it makes more sense.

Trade-Technomat useful? Definitely.

Thanks for the feedback.

I probably did not explain totally but I am the GM and it was a question a player asked.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

The old thread is here .

Not much more there than has been covered here, but there are some nice examples and rationalisations.

Refering to this and the previous thread...

The idea of the Trade(Technomat) skill being used to craft and repair items is a Blasphemous Heresy and a Great Insult to the Omnissiah !

The Technomat is a skilled worker. Each Great and Sacred Machine is attended to by thousands of Technomats who watch over its Spirit. Each of them is assigned to one particular area of the Machine to which they are responsible. They have no idea how the Machine works. They may not even know the Machine's purpose. The Technomats are tasked to perform the Sacred Rites and Rituals so that the Machine Spirit is soothed (properly maintained). I.e. "When the green light awakens, apply the sacred ungent to the large cog and say the Rite of Rust Prevention ". The Machine is more important than the Technomats who care for it. They are disposable, the Machine is not. The Technomat Skill can be taught to almost any layman with ease. Common Lore (Tech) would also give the Technomat a wider understanding of the Rites and Rituals. Common Lore (Machine Cult) would ensure the Technomat greets his Tech-Priest masters appropriately. But if the Great Machine should break, many other skills will become necessary. If the Machine requires rebuilding, a Tech-Priest will use the Tech-Use skill to gain an understanding of the Machine Spirit's nature and Logic to analyze the problem. The Trade (Wright) skill will be used to create a new design, modify an existing design or analyze a design along with the Logic skill. He will then use Trade (Wright) along with other appropriate skills such as Trade (Smith) and Tech-Use to build his design. He will use Tech-Use to Awaken(repair) the Machine's Spirit using the proper Litanies. The Tech-Priest will then use Trade (Technomat) to create a revised Ritual which will then be taught to the Technomat workers. The Tech-Priest will use Forbidden Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus) knowledge to make sure everything he does is in line with the Credo Omnissiah. (The Forbidden Lore (Archeotech) skill provides knowledge of the Ancient Machines from the Dark Age of Technology.) All these skills are important to the Tech-Priest and he may have need to use each of them in certain circumstances.

Any worker found using the Technomat skill to repair or create Tech will be declared a Heretek and will be rended into Servitor parts for their Insult to the Credo Omnissiah!

Remember, the Adeptus Mechanicus guards their Knowledge jealously but still has need for countless skilled and ignorant workers.

P.S. I was so insulted after I read this thread that I joined the FFGforums just to write this response.

Grinnenstadt said:

Hate is a powerful motivator! Welcome, I am sure you will be a valuable addition to our team

Zakalwe said:

Contrary to the skill name, I would rather switch the areas for Technomat and Tech-Use around. Tech-use is the skill of the informed people, Technomat is the path of the ignorant auxiliaries.

Alex

I'd like to point out to you all, that in the context of this discussion the Technomat is a Tech Priest.

BangBangTequila said:

Let him try to fix a machine with Tech-Use and as usual if he fails, he'll still know rituals to placate an angry machine spirit that he may try (severely more difficult Technomat roll for a second chance to succeed).

Alex

A Tech-Priest does not absolutely need Trade (Technomat). Tech-Use and Common Lore (Tech) would allow you to perform the functions of a Technomat and are much more versatile. (Tech-Use to operate, repair and maintain, Common Lore (Tech) to know the proper Rituals) There are times when the Technomat skill could be useful, yes. I think you must ultimately ask yourself, "would it be appropriate for my character and my play style". If you are a power gamer, then it is probably a redundant skill for you. If your Tech-Priest has regular interactions with workers that run the Machines and regularly works with many different kinds of Machines, then it would be a natural part of a Tech-Priest's skill set. If your Tech-Priest is more of a Mechanicus Secutor type, with emphasis on killing Enemies and Questing for Knowledge rather than a more "Tinkerer" type, then you can likely skip this skill.

The Inquisitor's Handbook has expanded descriptions of Skills including Trade (Technomat) on pg. 244.

@ AK-73

"Contrary to the skill name, I would rather switch the areas for Technomat and Tech-Use around. Tech-use is the skill of the informed people, Technomat is the path of the ignorant auxiliaries".

RAW I think you are correct. I was just putting a suggested solution out there based on my experiences for people to take or leave as they wish. I have no issues either way because our GM is pretty fast and loose and Tech Use seems to cover pretty much everything we've encountered so far in our campaign (fast and loose bless his little cotton socks).

Being one of the maintainers mentioned earlier, there are multiple levels of repair.

Level 1: if there is a problem, replace batteries, turn off turn on
Level 2: Minor surface repairs, cleaning, replacing internal components (this is technomat)
Level 3: Repair of components (like rebuilding a circuit card), knowing the theory behind operation and repair (i can't find a replacement antenna but if I take this longer one and cut it to the right length it will transmit at the right frequency) (this is tech use)
Level 4: Repairing and developing custom items (I need a microstrobe with ir led's that flashes at one pulse every five seconds and has a battery life of at least 12 hours) (this would be something I would only give to forbidden lore or someone with very upgraded tech-use)

I would say that a technomat can do minor repairs much faster than a tech priest, to the point they could make a living on it. They can fix a toaster in under a hour, while a tech priest would take it apart and clean every inch and put it back together in 'perfect' working order but takes longer.

teck use is basic repair skills and use (seeing that feral word guardsman can get it too) learn just enuf too know how too get something too work

tecnomat too me would mean you have a somewhat more refind knowlege of how some/most machines work and know how too fix/ get them too work and or work better then they are or should!

the smith, miner and other traders more or less explain them selfs

f.lore ad mech too me is knowing the secerts of the cult and knowing that unlike what most ppl think about the ad mech you know they don`t know everything

c.lore teck too me is you have knowlege of teck and how it realy works not just the things you where told too do and how too do them.

My two cents:

Maybe the main difference is the WHEN and HOW. I would try to explain my thougts. You found a cogitator and you need to fix it to obtain Intel. You would use tech-use. Next case: You have a house with a cogitator and it requires daily maintenance. I think that tech use is to fix and repair and operate, but Trade Technomat is to do the daily operations, like put oil, move levels. So I think:

-Tech-Use: Direct Operation and repairs.

-Technomat: Day to Day work and long operation.

Seeing that some careers get tech-use and only few get trade (technomat) I get the inpression that the trade has to be something better or at least different than tech-use.

I would say that the trade (Technomat) is like tech-use + scholastic lore (tech), [which doesn't exist so that not everyone can learn it though mastery skills]. That way everyone with tech-use can try to fix something but only a technomat can do it the right way.

Maybe someone could write to the Rules question section and post here the answer.