In 1e,2e we had "nobles" and "ex-convict" as careers. Are these /really/ careers with actual skill-sets? See, I see noble or ex-con just as background. Just because WFRP tradition has had a 'noble' doesn't mean that it really should have a career of it. I think what I'd rather see is a more significant breakdown of the definition: courtesan, lazy bastard, and administrative noble would seem to make more sense.

Since we're on the subject, I recall the outrage over there being an "ex-con' career. I see this the same way. "ex con" is not really a skill set.

Comments?

jh

What it looks like what FFG is doing is making "Noble" a career trait, which I think is a good idea. You should have multiple "noble" careers, depending on what the character really does.

Oh, I like that idea!

jh

The 'Noble as a career' trait also has many other fringe benefits.

How will someone react to the character? Potentially they need to talk a noble NPC, if they don't have the noble trait then they could be getting some misfortune dice.

It's also elegantly worked into the career advancement system and I'm sure that there will be other uses down the line. One of the things I really like about WFRP 3e is how well the rules complement each other.

I have done the Ex Con career for my playing group in 3rd. His career ability was to have always an improvised weapon with DR 4 and CR 3 at hand.

I wouldn't be surprised if we might see a further expansion of the Noble trait, and more details on how it works and what it does, in a supplement in the future. Definitely an interesting idea to work with.

I'm sure it's been said by others, but the Ex-Con career idea seems somewhat silly. It's a career that's defined only by previously having another career. You don't take on the Ex-Con career, you leave the Thief career (or Smuggler, Forger, etc).

Why not do that for every career? You can have ex-ratcatchers, ex-commoners, ex-watchmen, ex-pit fighters, ex-agents, ex-boatmen, ...

Doc, the Weasel said:

While I do agree with you to a point. There is something different about being an ex-con. I haven't specifically read that card so I don't know the narrative. But there is a set of skills and outlook that an ex-con has. Serving time and surviving in a WFRP prison is a skill set on it's own. There is a difference between that and a ratcatcher that's transitioned to a different career. Also there is still a stigma attached to being a con in the first place that could potentially always come back to bite you in the butt. While on a surface level ex-con seems kind of week. I think it's a distinct enough life change that it has as much validity in being a career as being a servant, a slave or a scholar for that matter.

The Stigma of an Ex Con is in the Empire literal. They have a T for Thief, a V for Vagabond burnes into the back of their hands or lost a limb to Jack Ketch. An Ex Con is not an Ey Thief or an Ex Whatever, he was in Prison for a substantial amount of time and his behaviour and body has changed. So it is a basic career and can be taken by any other career, because if you are in debt in the empire and cannot pay your interest, you are going to a debtor´s prison; If you stand in a noble´s way and he really doesnot like your face, you are going to prison.

In my opinion the Ex Con is an important and not to ignore career.

zwobot said:

As a starting career it's ok, but going from another career and suddenly becoming an ex-convict is pretty strange. I'd say being an ex-con is more of a back story than a career.

In a few games that we have played we have treated / houseruled status (rank) as a distinct attribute / trait. Characters may be born a noble or be "created" a noble by decree. Some careers would automatically gain a title (even if only for as long as they hold a particular office). This was done in an effort to ditinguish between barons, earls, counts, dukes, etc and to show whom out-ranked who.

As such, I would treat ex-con as a similar character trait. Both hold meaning and background for a character, but their impact on skillset could be argued as minimal. Characters with a high rank would have access to certain skills as career advances and not out of career advances. Social situations would grant fortune / misfortune dice. By the same rational ex cons would have similar sorts of advantages and disadvantages.

With regard to beggars, we always assumed that some poor individual had fallen on hard times so we took any career and used it as a template, dropped a few stats, added in a few diseases, conditions, etc, and then added a few fitting perks / skills / etc to compensate. This too was just a character trait as with rank in nobility (social status).

We tried these mechanics in Stormbringer and WFRP 1st ed and 2ed and they seemed to work reasonably well.

With WHFRP 3rd ed, and given that we already have bronze, silver and gold tiers, it should be relatively easy to define social status 'traits' and a list of advantages / disadvantges (balanced) for each trait - possibly even an additional career talent?

Just my ramblings,

Alp

Hey Alp,

please check out the Liber Fanatica development forums - I think there are some messages for you

Cheers,
Undermound a.k.a Casaubon

Gallows said:

Ok, but then it's perfectly legit to not alow someone to become an ex-con during the middle of a campaign unless of course the character servers some prison sentence. It would just be dumb to have a person wake up one morning and decide hey - I'm an ex-con. That goes for any career change just because it's mechanically allowed doesn't mean you have to allow it.

If consequences of a previous life were so important, why not have an ex-Wizard career? There's much more of an important background than being an Ex-Con.

The thing is, careers are based on who you are, not who you were. The consequences of being caught and branded are background material.

Who can define what an Ex-Con actually does that justifies its own career?

Doc, the Weasel said:

Everything he does or did is covered by other careers (Assassin, thief etc.) I don't see ex-con as a career at all.

All valid arguments. So the question I'll propose is this. Is the game worse off or better off for having the ex-con in it?

Ex-Con

Basic, Urban, Rogue, Branded

CC * RR (sometimes you've gotta bide your time, ya know? And sometimes you have to punch that guard in the teeth)

Talents: Rep/Tactics (Recommend Infamous, and Robust)

Primary Characteristics: Toughness, Willpower

Skills: Resilience, Athletics, Folklore, Guile, Intimidate

Action: 2 Talent: 1 Skill: 2 Fortune: 2 Conservative: 0 Reckless: 1 Wound: 2

Card: Tough as Three nails.

To survive in the empire prisons you have to be tougher than disease, guards, and the inmates who want your crust of bread. All fortune spent on Toughness become [Y], and you gain [W] an all rolls against disease.

===============================

That to me looks very different than a rogue. Or a smuggler. Or a mercenary. Or an ex-wizard. And the game could certainly use this more than a 'grave robber'.

Discuss.

Also, I was debating on alternate class cards: Such as

[W] when using improvised weapons, and you may substitute Athletics for WS when using them.

and as a gag: Don't Drop the soap!: You automatically gain 1 training in coordination as long as it is below your Rank cap.

shinma said:

Yes, but what does the ex-con DO that merits a whole career?

If he goes back to crime, then he's a Thief (or other Rogue career).

If he goes on the straight and narrow, he's that new career (for example, if he gets some money working the docks, he's a dockworker).

This sounds like a good idea for a talent rather than a career.

What your currently doing doesn't necessarily mean that's your career. A mercenary that decides to rob a few coaches doesn't automatically make him a highway warden anymore then it would make him a road warden if he saved a few coaches. The same goes for an ex-con. Some people are just that ex-con's they stay with that stigma and mindset long after they are out of prison. But again if you have a problem with the career limit it's use. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad or broken.

In my campaign, that's exaclty how we do it: You started out in a basic career. It means NOTHING other than the skill set you bring with you. Now, by the time you begin your 2nd, that's when you've decided who and what you're going to be.

jh

My two cents;

First off I've always thought that the term "career" was sort of a loose one in Warhammer. In my campaign all of the characters work for a witch hunter serving as her "agents". I suppose that is their "career", however, mechanically they are a Mercenary, Scout, and Initiate of Sigmar. I've always looked at the career concepts as simply being an individual's skill set. As for ex-con (or any career) you could easily re-titled the "career" to fit a different background that you imagine would have a similar set of skills/outlooks.

Secondly, although I always hate to use real life as an example, I've worked in corrections for 17 years and I can tell you with 100% accuracy tha "ex-con" is most certainly a career! If you've been a convict for any significant length of time it has forever altered your outlook and the way you approach life. That's why recidivism rates are so high, incarceration permanately changes who you are. Show me 50 guys on the street or at work and I'll pick out the ex-cons in the group.

That having been said I think it would be cool to maybe add background templates to the game, something almost like race in terms of mechanics. Elements that are always with your character regardless of career or vocation. If you had something like that, I think Ex-Con, Noble, Commoner, etc. would all be great "background templates".

RenoDM said:

Yeah just like Frasier... and I'm sure you'll have the same kind of success

The short answer is yes, why not?
A Noble is a background but also a profession in the old World. Nobles do have duties and responsibilities as well as privileges. And many go through training a classic schooling in order to become proficient ruler and noble.

That said a noble career would be as various at the Veteran career would be. I’m sure we will see more than one type of noble in the upcoming Slaneesh box. Like Noble lord, for instance.
Hailing from the Kingdom of Norway myself, I would be remiss to downplay the importance of nobles and royalty in the old world, and real world. It was in the dark years of occupation (1940-45) that our king Haakon V continued the fight on our behalf in England, being a beacon of light and hope, and the symbol defiance against the occupying enemy. As long as the monarchy family was free to fight, we the people where not conquered. But then again our monarchy is somewhat special; being the only king ever to be elected into position by democratic election (1906), and even today our king is hailed as the king of the people for the people, by the people. Ah now I’m digressing. But we sure love our king.

That said in the broadest sense a career can be a background in itself right? So I would be disappointed if not noble careers would be presented in the upcoming Slaanesh box.
As somenone mentioned, the term career should be used in a broader meaning, not just as an profession, I think that would help defining careers for the future. There are other careers that could have more in similarity with backgrounds like the Outlaw (from the second edition).
But than again Emirikol might be right. FFG seems to have excluded several background orientated careers like the outlaw, Noble, protagonist, Outlaw chief, etc.
It would be interesting to see what FFG meant about this, as they are the authority on this. A broader sense or a strict sense when dealing with careers?
Interesting topic, and enjoyable to read.

Why an "Ex-con" and not just a "Convict"? I mean, every other starting career usually ends up being what you DID before the game began, rather than what you're doing now (allthough that completely depends on the GM and his adventure). And if you go into the Ex-Con career later, do you stop playing for a stint in prison and then change over to the Ex-Con career when you get back out? Or are you imprisoned and then become an ex-con while you're still inside? Just a little nit-pick

I loved your suggestion for the career Shinma. I really wish FFG would release another pack of careers from all walks of life where, among others, the ex-con was included.

See, I think a good point has been made here, these things don't need a career, they need a trait, which can help flesh out the slightly watery reiklander background.

Better yet, you could create traits based on a lot of the descriptors on the top of character cards, charge a few creation points for them and then add various bonuses/negatives to them.

And by you I mean "I" and by "could" I mean "has LFVIII finished accepting submissions"?