Hi, I was wondering what the most destructive thing a milatiristic rogue trader dynasty might posses and wondered if they could ever find themselves with a titan?

Also how are these things transported?

Especially when the larger Emperor Class ones seem like they would take up just asbout all the space on a smallish Rogue trader ship...

The upper echelons of the Adepta tend to hoard the good equipment zealously; there are some items that simply cannot be acquired by an acquisition check. Titans are at the extreme upper end of "good equipment" and should never be available for purchase. Even Deathwatch marines can't requisition them as they are only available in special circumstances. (Deathwatch's Rites of Battle has the stats for a Warhound. It's pretty horrifying.)

The Adeptus Mechanicus' Collegia Titanica controls all of the Imperial Titans and allocates their use. They use specialized transports and very large custom landers to carry and deploy titans as they are far too large for conventional transport. Usually, they are only deployed in a major crusade or if a vital world is under attack.

Then again, all that doesn't rule out the players getting access to a titan. It just means the circumstances need to be extraordinary. If the dynasty is fighting with the Imperium against a common foe, or if they do a truly huge favour to the Cult Mechanicus... It should be something epic to earn even temporary use of a Titan though. Of course, there's nothing that says a titan has to be Imperial. Maybe the friendly neighborhood Banelord wants to cut a deal.

Cheers,

- V.

Possessing a Titan, one of the sacred God Machines, is a question that is in se allready tinged with heresy. These are indeed the sole purview of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and any use of Titans should be the result of long and arduous negotiations with them. And of having a really, really good reason.

Of course, other titans are a different case. As a GM I would relish the idea of my players dealing with those...errmm...well, at least they look humanlike. And that titan really has a nice brash and red shine. Looks real efficient as well, so why not? It just is that Khorne is probably to direct to make this possible, so perhaps we should go for those sinuous purplish ones. They offer some very tempting fringe benefits as well, and do so quickly agree that you should own some of their products. With the crews of course, so they can enlighten your dynasty about the true knowledge behind their machines. Darn good idea of Vandegraffe.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

Imperial Titans in the Expanse would be laughably rare, but there's always the off chance of a Mechanicus vessel being blown off course in the past, crash landing on a planet somewhere, its mighty cargo hurled free from its restraints, there to remain until a lucky Explorer's curiousity was peaked by an unusually large energy signature from the planet's surface and chose to investigate.

That said, any GM would have to think very carefully about gifting the party with even a damaged Titan; the potential for havoc grows dramatically when the players have that big a stick to swing around.

haha thanks for the reply i have no doubts my players would abuse one of these things and I'm pretty sure they would do just about anything to aquire one if they had the chance...

Do remember, however, that a Titan is an avatar of war. Not only is it one of the most fearsome weapons ever created by the Imperium, it knows it. If your players are wanting to fix every little problem they have by throwing the titan at it, there's every chance it would simply refuse.

space blanket said:

Questions regarding the aquisition have been mostly answered.

Titans are transported by huge transport vessel. It kinda sounds stupid, but thats it, the main difference is that a titan is tall as opposed to long/wide like a Baneblade. Maybe a Transport vessel like a Battletech dropship, or a simply HUGE transport that brings down a whole cohort of them.

Regarding the size, its hardly a problem though. An Emperor is smaller than a 100 metres (about 55.5 metres to lexicanium). Even the smallest warp capable vessel is far taller than multiple Emperors. Storing one isnt the problem.

Storing one according to the proper rites as laid down by the Adeptus Mechanicus might be. A Cobra or a Firestorm will have problem lugging a titan around, but cruisers/transports and bigger vessels have more than enough space to ferry them around in style.

Transporting a Titan would indeed be a lesser problem, even if I doubt many ships have the unimpeded wide and especially high holds a Titan would need. But, if, and I repeat if, aquired, the problem does not seem to be the transport. Rather, it is getting the Titan to a planet and from a planet. Drop pods and gun cutters are all nice, but can in essence not deliver much more then infantry. Lighter craft can probably maintain a slow buildup of mechanised forces with decent tanks and artillery. From a strategic/operational point of view the main point of a space landing seems to be achieving a faster buildup of you troops then your foes. Compare it to the problem facing airborne forces in the real world. They have astounding strategic mobility and can be dropped about everywhere, but once they are on the ground they are foot slogging light infantry, highly vulnerable to a counterattack by heavy units. Of course, the redeployement capabilities offered by cutters and lighters mitigate this, but a space landing is a serious cookie. For Titans it becomes even worse. Large Imperial ships (i.e. just those Warp capable ships that transport the Titans) cannot land, so you will need specific landing craft . Perhaps Titan sized drop pods, even if I shudder to think what the effect on their tech spirits will be. Large landing barges seem more logical, and I believe I saw some illustrations of them once. And then you get the maintenance, with Legions of Techpriests swarming over the revered God Machines.

In short, yes, a Titan in a Rogue Trader's service is theoretically possible. Just as a battleship can become his flagship. And he could indeed become the focal point of a campaign, drawing untold volunteers from the Calixis in a conquest rivalling the Angevin Crusade, spreading the might of the God-Emperor before returning to Terra and taking his rightfull place as one of its High Lords. But in any lesser context, where we just have some shady characters trying to make thrones and conquer a planet or two, I would leave the Titans out of it, however awesome they are.

FvR

As a number of people have pointed out, Imperial titans are Mechanicus only. The crews who know how to operate one are all Mechanicus.

There is also the not so little question of maintenance and repair. The knowledge required to even maintain a titan, let alone build one, is jealously guarded by a subset of the Mechanicus. It's highly unlikely anyone on board a rogue trader ship will have anything more than the barest idea of what tech-rituals are appropriate for the God Machines. And irritating their warlike machine spirits can have very real and very terminal consequences.

Regarding dropships again.

Support craft are supposed to be about the size of assault boats. Whcih are about the size of a today jumbo (i think)(info from BFK). So getting small tanks etc. down to a planet is hardly a problem, once you consider how the Imperium builds anything. You only need to up the number of support craft allotted to transports/cruisers and you get a good transport capacity.

Once you get to Baneblades and titans, you need to aquire special transports. But short of that nothing that a really low orbit cant handle.

Thanks for all the info guys and I'm inclined to agree that despite how awesome titans are it is unlikley that a rogue trader could ever fully control and possess a titan. However after what was said about the sometimes temperamental nature of the titans and what Van Riebeek said about the existence of chaod aligned titans, I'm wondering about how using a renegade titan as an enemy for the Rigue Trader.

Perhaps a titans gone mental on a Forge World and the Rogue Trader who happened to be passing by, is persuaded to lend a hand in stopping it?

Or a Rogue traders world is ravaged by Khorne Raiders with a half demonic titan leading the charge planetside?

Whatever the scenario how would you stop a titan given that you (The Rogue trader and retinue) dont have a titan of your own or any particularly heavy artillery? Surley its not as easy as setting up a steel cable trip wire?

Well, to stop a Titan a Rogue Trader has lances and macrobatteries. Total destruction in one square kilometre should do the trick. The point will be to pin it down...or better yet, to hit it while it is in maintenance. Your ship can unload Arc Light mission after Arc Light mission on a planet (Arc Light was the codename for B-52 bombing missions in Vietnam). The hardest part would probably be the targetting, but that is one of the things I am wondering about in my 'ships vrs planets' tread where I am in fact loudly thinking. The Epic Armageddon rules might offer a handhold as well, as they specifically describe the use of lances as titankillers.

Ooh, and honour due where it is, it was Vandegraffe who came with the Chaos Titan idea. I do have another one though. Not sure if the squats are still canon, but a squat Land Train (or a comparable human vehicle) would also be an amazing gadget to have. Remember though, whether players have a Titan, Landtrain or other very powerfull weapon ( I would rate a battlecruiser as well) means that others will wish to take it from them. You will have your misfortunes ready made.

FvR

It's tricky hitting specific targets from orbit. I think Deathwatch's Rites of Battle mentions that a lance strike hitting within a kilometre of the intended target is a bullseye by Imperial Navy standards. Hitting the titan before it blows up something important on that planet could and should be a challenge. But that's where a group of explorers with mag-locking beacons and guiding strikes in by vox come in.

Well, once you make the leap to strategic void power, so to say, it becomes slightly easier. I completely agree that hitting a Titan on the battlefield will be hidiously difficult and the risks of blue on blue fire is terrifying. But, why should you attack a Titan on the battlefield? Go for the Mechanicus Maintenance and Supply facilities, hit them when they are being serviced or when they move towards the battlefield. I must be careful here, or I will wax lyrical about the efficiency of operational air (or void) power. And it goes further. Ork Gargants a problem....well, show those silly Meks the power on the Imperium while they build their monstruous effigies.

This makes me think we really need some information on planetary defences. I suppose bombers, ground launched torpedos and massive batteries and lances provide good examples. And perfect targets for players, who can knock them out with commando actions to leave a planet defenceless.

FvR

There is the question of how intact you want the planet to be afterwards. Or at least the surroundings for a few hundred kilometres. Wanton use of lance strikes and shelling with macrocannons will make most planets somewhat less profitable to say the least. There are reasons the Imperium doesn't simply rely on orbital bombardment in war.

Decessor said:

If you look at the rules for orbital bombardments in Battlefleet Koronus, you'll see that, chances are, lances would barely hurt them, especially if they've got their void shields up.

In the rules as they are, a direct lance hit will obliterate anything. Of course, if this applies to a shielded Titan is another matter. The question is whether or not a Titans shields would be able to stop a hit of lance strength, or if their (comparatively) small plasma reactor would not be able to put enough void shields between themselves and the incandescent pillar of force a lance represents. A comparison of the battle systems (Epic and BFG) will not bring us that much, as they clearly are of a different scale. The 4 Void shields of a mighty warlord would pale compared to the power needed to shield one Dauntless. If I read it correctly vulcan mega-bolters (nice titan sized stuff) or here no more then the turret armament (BFK, p.31). The awesome plasma cannon of a Imperator Titan might perhaps be comparable to one gun of a (lighter) plasma battery.

As far as Orbital bombardment getting overpowered and stopping the need for ground based action...well, look at how usefull a cell of B 52's is in the real world. They can inflict terrible destruction, but I have never seen any power in history take ground with air power alone. In my opinion, forces on a planet with degraded planetary defences will find themselves in a comparable position as Japanese troops defending an island (albeit a vast island, with its own industry and massive reserves) in the Pacific. Against the air power, they can only hide, dig in and endure. But not even the combined might of the American Pacific Fleets was able to conquer even one little island without putting boots on the ground. Furthermore, till now we kept talking symmetrical, but asymmetric warfare would invalidate orbital bombardment almost completely. The Rogue Traders mining ventures on the planet are being harried, attacked, sabotaged and so more by small bands of guerrillas? Orbital bombardment would be as limited in its use here as B 52's were against VC local guerrillas (as opposed to their very efficent tactical use against NVA Divisions or the strategic use in Linebacker II).

FvR

Just to point out that while a Dauntless obviously has far more reactor power to throw into void shields it has to cover a far, far larger area that that of a scout titan.

Good point on the asymmetric warfare. Unless the planet is some sort of grey wasteland of zero value except as an artillery range, stopping even a scout titan with just orbital bombardment is going to *cost*.

Well, it all depends on the time scale and the profit a capitulation might entail. Say, take Japan and Germany in WW II. Both countries were about as smashed up as countries can be, both having had the attention of intense strategic campaigns, with nukes added in Japans case and even more destructive ground warfare in the case of Germany. Both are industrial powerhouses. If you can force a planet into capitulation without having to invade it the repairs might be far, far cheaper then the campaign. And do not forget, few things can smash up a country as intense ground fighting. Dresden or Stalingrad... both are sad pictures of what warfare will do with a city. Even all the destruction unleashed by the allied airforces on Japan and germany pales compared to the cost of warfare on the Eastern front.

What is probably more important then the shielding of a Titan or its resilience is the rest of what the Titan Legions bring along. Would you deploy such valuable weapons without proper air defences? Massive mobile orbital torpedo batteries would protect the continents where the battles would be fought. Space cabale aircraft would be ready to lift and fight a battle in orbit with the apporaching ships. And with proper preparation, deep sunken plasma and lance batteries would be ready to tough it out with a spacecraft, protected by their own void shield a massive layers of plasteel and rockcrete. As I said above, I do not think that the resilience of a Titans shield reflects the power of a ships shield. Battleships kilometres long with 4 shields that are of the same strength as a Warlords four shields? The whole Warlord would probably fit in the plasma core of the battleship.

FvR

It shouldn't be that hard to hit something from an orbit less than 2,000 km above sea level. At 12 VUs hitting the broadside of 1.5 km ship requires a maximum deviation of 6.25 microradians generously. The same deviation from low planetary orbit is only 12.5 meters. Atmospheric effects can't be that bad.

Moribund said:

No, no dont use evil mathematics. Just dont. This is 40k and we dont do mathematics around here.

In DW a Lance strike that hits within a 1km radius of the target is considered a bullseye. How that Navy can hit anything in space combat is a mystery to me.

For me, hitting something from orbit is easycakes, but destroying something quite a different matter entirely. Iwo Jima is a great example of that, Mount Suribachi withstood alot of firepower for a long time. PÜlanetery defenses of appropriate (comparable technology) for asymmetruical warfare would probably accomplish a similar outcome. You have ot get down and firght in the mud.

Let me see if this RAW analysis is correct. If I read it correctly, a Warlord Titan counts as a Strength 100 Power level 45 unit (BFK 124) . A lance strike from orbital bombardment (BFK 133) has an initial impact area, no more then a few hundred meters, and anything directly hit is directly annihilated. That seems clear on what a direct hit would do to it. The blast wave it will probably survive with its Armour value of 90, but only if we count it as an individual vehicle (which I think is proper). If however we just count it as an unit, just as we would count a unit of baneblades, it is in big trouble, as the damage of 75+5D10 will even start to hurt a Warlord. Macrobatteries are less efficient, but they technically still have a chance of scoring a direct hit on a Titan, obliterating it as well (just as modern day tanks are almost impervious to normal 155 mm HE artillery rounds, but still will be screwed if one of them happens to drop on their turret roof). Logically, a Titan would be subject to a lucky hit, say, a small percentage chance. If it is not subject to an improbable but still posible direct hit, it would fare well when counted as a vehicle, suffering 4D10+5 damage. If counted as a Unit its armour would offer it a perfect amount of protection as well, with Armour 90 versus 40+5D10 damage. Shields are nowhere mentioned. According to RAW, it seems that a Titans shields are overloaded when suffering a direct hit, while the energy of a lance will quite likely cause them damage if they get caught close but a hit. Problem is, if we count a Titan as an individual vehicle, why would it have a STR value?

FvR