Gothik said:

FFG can't do something about players that always stick to the most popular deck at the moment. Of course VTHC is dominant but in the end it's the players that decide what is played.

But FFG can do something against card that broke the game ~~.

Not 'can' but should. Make it 'restricted+unique' and problem solved or add some quest-destroying cards.

As much as Visit/Empire is the best deck right now, it is not as big of a problem as the old repeater decks were. Have you guys tried to play something like this against it? I've found that this type of list preforms well against empire decks as it has the huge potential swing from slaneeshs domination (empire lists usually have 1/3 or more tactics), the resource restriction from pillage/burn it down, lots of unit control (which church and iron will can help prevent unless you remove them with slanneesh/burn & pillage), and some pretty fast damage potential with spiders/clan moulder/savage gors.

3 chaos/orc alliance

2 evil alliance

3 warpstone excavation

3 contested village

3 clan moulder elite

3 wight lord

3 spider riders

3 savage gor

3 ungor raider

3 sorcerer of tzneetch

3 greyseer thanquil

3 clan rat

3 pillage

3 plague bomb

3 slaanesh's domination

3 burn it down

3 cloying quagmire

TL

I won several games against my own (and other) Thrower decks with different decks...

I don't know ANY deck aside Orcs that can defeat a fine tuned Verena deck.

I like the polish list and that's similar to the list I'm talkin' about (that, I repeat, is NOT mine)...The core's the same and so is the concept...But there is a combination of new-older cards that gives this deck an enormous advantage on his opponents.

One month ago, everyone denied the superiority of Verena...Now Verena is winning everything (gettin' second places at worst...and it's important to see ALL the decks around) I think there's nothing to do but restrict Verena and/or VTHC and makin' this one Unique. If you wanna play Verena, you DON't play Wilhelm, VTHC, Warpstone or Innovation...

Think about this, guys: we're talkin' about two/three cards that ruin the meta. Someone says it's Wilhelm, someone VTCH, but we all agree that they're Empire cards. I don't see any consistant criticism other than askin' FFG to do something, rather than tryin' to show "how we can go against Verena".

We have 6 GREAT races to play and a bunch of interesting combos/interactions (Indirect damage, infinite indirect damage, Empire control, Dwarf Aggro control, Orc Reanimator, Orc pure control, Orc aggro, Dark Elf mill decks, Caos "snipe")...And all of this is impossible because of Verena decks.

And I like this game for its inner variety and its funny interactions...And I like it because the Theme is strong.

In Agot we had harsh times for balance...But I see mechanics involve themes and vice versa.

Here this "Verena moment" is a bit too long and is destroyng everything.

The funny thing is that some players discovered this before FFG did. And that's NOT a design flaw, as a said, but a matter of playtesting.

The only thing we need is a restriction and an errata. Stop. Then we've our great game back.

While I do agree that Empire is the strongest faction currently and I feel that Visit should probably be a unique card I would be careful about going too far with this kind of thing. It might be the case that Judgement and/or visit should be restricted (more so than wilhelm in my opinion) but its import to keep in mind that it is the nature of LCGs that it wont be uncommon for a single faction to be ahead of the others at any given time, especially in the middle of a battle pack cycle.

This game has had people calling for restriction/banning from the beginning due to a single archtype dominating events. It has been Orcs/Bolt Thrower/Dwarves/ and now Empire that have had people calling for bans/restrictions/ruling changes and really only with the Outpost of Tianoc/Thrower combo has there really been a major issue. With as powerful as the upcoming legends expansion appears to be I wouldnt be surprised if something new takes domination, especially if they swing the nerf hammer too hard on empire. Arguably if there wasnt a restricted list dwarves would be as good as empire, maybe better if you added a couple of the empire cards.

As I said I do think that is probably room for some kind of change to weaken haunted city, but I would just keep in mind the living nature of the LCG.

TL

DB.Cooper said:

Post above, about Polish meta isn't true, that deck is one of 3 strongest builds.

DB.Cooper said:

Chaos development-hate rush -> easily

There is only one card that should be restricted right now - Derricksburg Forge.

Really.

(and eventually Unique for VTHC)

I trust you, rasdsaris and I'm not sayin' "I'm right"...I just tell what I see. And I've said that if the "creator" will allow me to post his deck, I'll prove what I mean...Then, I'm pretty convinced that you've great players (are you the guy who make videos on YouTube? )...but I'm convinced that our players are too and this is not a "I'm the best" kind of thread, 'cause the list isn't mine.

Chaos around here is "slowly" beginnin' to be competitive and sometimes stops Verena...But it's a kind of "Caos Control" build...

Things may change from meta to meta and I'm fine with it...But I seriously don't believe there's a single deck that can beat the list I saw...here's the thing: we have a league and this year took place more than 25 tournaments...Empire Verena won them all (or the like). From 8 to 32 players tournament: Verena, always, as a nightmare.

But again, obviously it depends on the meta...

And I'm not "cryin'" for bans. I'm against bans, always been. But I'm with the game...And I know the "cyclic domination" stuff about LCG, it's pretty common...But I've never had a feeling like the ones I've right now: the game isn't that entertaining with THIS Verena decks around.

Probably after Worlds things will change and I'm sure the idea is to slow things down (Legends are not that "fast" )...And I'm happy, really.

Anyway, I'm playin' the game (not so much right now, but not for Verena ) and I'll go on doing everything I can to keep up the attention on the game in our country. No problem.

Hope to see an errata though. Very soon.

No hes not, im making this videos on YouTube. And i think that this imperial quest is very good, but its not true that you cant win with it.

DB cooper. Do you think the old RBT deck would win against reanimator deck or empire deck ?

If you want to limit judgement, maybe you could put long winter in the restricted list.

Djibi said:

Seriously, I don't know. I don't judge on things I didn't test. It's pretty difficult to say this...The worst thing about RBT was that you didn't have units and the oppo had lots of useless cards in hands...That was the main problem...And Orc reanimator can suffer "bouncing effects" and this "problem" of "too many useless cards", even if muck solves the problem, partially.

I won against RBT in a tournament, last year, playin' Orc Control. "Grimgor" was the tech. And Smash'em'all too. Orc can easlily take care of Developements and Supports right now and I don't see RBT being a great problem anymore, especially after errata hit it.

Reanimator Deck can beat Verena. It does. But it doesn't win tournament against Verena. Never happened here (happy to see it happens around, but I'm pretty sure the Verena list I'm talkin' about is a lot stronger than any other list I've seen).

I've never made WARS against cards: I posted opinions and everyone knows how I try to be balanced and calm about this stuff...And I'm quiet. A lot. Not "trollin'" against Verena, just sayin' something FOR the game.

Anyway...RBT had the engine based on Treasure Vaults. VTHC gets rid of it (it's "kingdom"). And so it's for RBT itself. A common deck can recover from a Verena, it's possible...But a deck that needs a 4-5 turns set up before doing anything than "bouncing back" is totally dead against Verena: I saw RBT lose to Verena even when VTHC and Wilhelm weren't around.

Long Winter in the restricted list is FOR Verena, not against it: at least, with Long Winter around, playin' the "Judgement" is a little bit more difficult.

The point is NOT that you CAN'T win against it, but that you cannot win in a consistant way against it, so that, even if you win a game, you won't win the tournament, 'cause it will. That's the point of organized play and tournaments.

Then, for casual play, even if it's more annoyin' than ever, you can decide not to build it and play the "normal" game.

I'm frustrated, believe me, and I hate doing this: but, I swear, there are empire players who quit playin' empire for this and some competitive players that yes, play Verena ('cause the "aim" of competition is winning) but that would be REALLY happy to see it restricted.

And I think that's the proof that our claim is not "for us".

Gothik said:

I am playing a similar concept since October last year, it really works well (all matches I made won). But I would change some thing on this one. Called Back vs Pilgrimage and definitely 3rd Hellblaster. And I would add some great surprise cards from the past, the might not be the best plain value, but the come unexpected.

DB.Cooper said:

Post it, or it did not happen.
Here is mine (with some older cards as well):
http://deckbox.org/sets/42744?v=v
3 Contested Village
3 Franz's Decree
3 Helblaster Volley Gun
3 Huntsmen
2 Infiltrate
3 Called Back
3 Chain Lightning
3 Derricksburg Forge
3 Knights Panther
3 Nimble Spearman
3 Pistoliers
3 Shrine to Taal
3 Skinks of Sotek
3 Spellsinger
3 Rodrik's Raiders
3 Spawn of Itzl
3 Wilhelm of the Osterknacht

So what makes it different:
even more aggro: Taal/Volleyblaster/Spellsinger/Spearman/Panther/Pistoliers give you much shooting power.
unit heavy: you have enough units to deploy to kingdom and quest that some supports can be moved to battlefield.
control: being verena heavy meta, i expect more units on the field: wilhelm/lightning/called back/skinks/sotek give you control over them
surprise: Franz's Decree will allow some sneak attacks and stopping reanimator
About playstyle: You should try to keep the enemy low on cards all time. If he does not have cards, he cannot develop. Raiders should most times kill quest zone supports. Called Back on quest (or heavy attackers). If you can not reduce draw to 1 this round, you play Infiltrate and do it next round.
One Panther should be played into K to have a flexibel Verena Temple.
Developing B all time. Trying to get out Pistoliers and Taal or fast attacking.

It did happen, Jogo.
Sadly...

40 tournaments: 39 Empire wins (or so).

I'd really like to translate all the reports...

But that's it: let's wait the end of the "worlds" and see what happens. Really hope to see High Elves win with all their beauty or the Chaothic hordes of damages and corruption...

But beyond every corner there's an Haunted city ruining everything.

I did not say, that it was unlikely. But I would like to see lists from them (and I do not see reason for you not posting them, after a list played enough matches, enough players know it).
And you should be happy about your tournament scene. In Germany we do not have any.

jogo said:

I'm happy about the environment...We work hard to keep it alive, but it's fine...

I asked 'em to post the list...I'll wait for the regional and maybe (HOPEFULLY) it'll be too late if the new FAQ's out eheheheh

The core list is Verena and the whole world knows it...The point is "fine tuning" and every meta has its own "secrets" and teches...A couple of cards change the whole deck and maybe that's the reason why they want to keep their lists secret.

I think everyone can build the core, it's pretty "obvious": the most difficult thing is to find the details and discover some more balance and perfection...

Believe me, we're not posting our ideas to troll or because it's funny: I believe in what I write and I know that's true...And I'm pretty sure that any playtester noticed it. I understand the fact that they cannot reword a card DURING regionals...It would be a crime to let people play with different rules during a single organized play season...

We're talkin' about Verena and everyone can post its own experiences: then, a single list can be weak in a hands different from the ones of the owner...And the lists I'm talkin' about are built by 2-3 players in the whole national meta...Lots of people play Verena, but THEY win.

The player matters, that's for sure: but Verena helps a lot.

Anyway, I've discussed about key cards and around here those cards doesn't seem to be that popoular...Everyone has it's own playstyle and it deserves respect...I respect.

But there's something I don't understand:

- Wilhelm: I see it as the strongest Hero considering its environment. People prefers Frederich. I don't see any consistant reason to spend 1 more resources to deal 2 more damage when I can win easily savin' some resources, move stuff around (Wilhelm + VTHC = end of tactics) and win.

Wilhlem is a key card, to me.

- Lizardmen: I don't see lots of them...They're powerful. Tested a lot and Lizards are the most effective neutral add.

And so on...

Maybe it's just a matter of playstyle,..so, let's reword the point: "in our environement" there's nothing stronger than Verena and I'm ready to bet that they'll win the majority of events.

That said, we'll have our regional at June 19th with 20-30 players...I'll let you know what will happen....

P.S. There's been a tournament yesterday...guess who won?

I'll be posting mine:

units 18:

3x willehlm

3x pistoliers

3x rodrik's riders

3x knight panther

3x spwn of itzl

3x shinks of sotek

supports 9:

3x taal

3x derricksburg forge

3x contested village

tattics 21:

3x long winter

3x will of electors

3x verena

3x pilgrimage

3x iron discipline

3x a noble quest

3x demolition

quest 3:

3x visit the haunted city

tot: 51 cards.

as I alrdy wrote, this is MY LIST, which is not the only one being played around. At every tournament may change from 3 to 9 cards, but the core and the idea is the same. for exemple i always play shinks+spwn, but many other guys plays the new spearmen woodelf and peasant militia due the 0 cost on the quest. the same goes for the verena package or for iron discipline, other guys prefers manaan instead of demolition while others sigmar church instead of iron discipline, but as you can see the deck is actualy the same. since there is no innovation it works all in quest, with 4-6 resourses per turn since you move on the pistoliers on phase 0 from quest zone to realm and then back to quest; by playing taal in the quest zone you can use for free pilgrimage which is good to leave units from game, attackings units, questing units and even your own units if you get vomited or destroyed by orcs/chaos.

I'm not an empire player since I rly don't like the quest, I'm an Orc Reanimator player since a rly long time, i'm gonna post my list, a list that is being played in italy since march 2011.

units 22:

2x grimgor

2x iseara

3x wight lord

3x lobber crew

3x stunty smasha

3x snotling saboteurs

3x sorceror of tzeentch

3x lord of change

supports 9:

3x contested village

3x one orc scrap

3x advanced engeenery

tattics 20:

3x innovation

3x raise dead

3x rip there heads off

3x pillage

3x easy pickin

3x troll vomit

2x smash go boom

total 51 cards.

I apreciate much more this deck instead of the empire one, in our inner country championship this deck is the first after verena with an high winning rate against other decks (ofc eccept verena).

Kragg's list shows the key cards and strategies:

- Knights Panther: is mostly a QUEST beast. It happens you have some extra money if you don't manage to pull out Pistoliers very soon and that's a perfect "box" for unspent resources...Save 'em and just draw up to 2 more cards at a 2 cost...Nothing in the game compares this resource/cards ratio.

Then, in the late game, can be moved in BZ to close the deal.

- Wilhelm: nothing to explain. It's totally stronger than any other hero around: wins games alone if you protect it a bit and its stats are not that bad: 2 damages per turn + 4 hp + the most annoying moving effect ever. In a couple of turns, with the help of VTHC you'll have LOOOOOOOOOOTS of money, but no cards in hand.

- VTHC: with it around, playin' warpstones is more a malus than a bonus...If you don't manage to control supports, you'll never attack again with full power. And if you "waste" a support removal to save yourself, you'll do nothing with Forge, Contested, Taal, Lights (in any) and so on...

- A noble quest: turn 2 VTHC is devastating, 'cause destroys any chance of planning.

- The lizards combo gives you the chance to control ANY monster: grimgor, iseara, lord of change and so on. Wound it, kill it: 5 cost total unit removal + 2 units in play.

- pilgrimage is a must right now: as Kragg said, the Empire is not a KZ deck anymore: it's a QUEST deck. Play VTHC, support it, destroy oppo's strategy and win with 3-4 attacks. Pilgrimage is basically a "0" cost bouncing effect that hits A LOT the only actual opponent of Verena: reanimator.

- Jade Acolyte: destroys rush, streghtens your capital and gives you (if needed) 1 more damage for 1 cost...Someone plays it.

- The woodelf who lets you put the top card as a dev is a choice: gives you another "classic" overture...derricksburg + quest + him on it with a dev in QZ. it means a turn 2 "pilgrimage" for 1 cost, an immediate trigger for VTHC if you play A noble quest and so on...

- Peasant militia is powerful just in mirror match, IMHO: in the mirror more than in any other match, the players who makes VTHC work for first have lots more chances to win the game...the militia gives a resource advantage and can be the difference between win and loss...

I'll go on later 'cause I've to work...

Two things strike me about the lists that Kragg posts:

1) The Empire build is a bit on the risky side. I'm not saying it's better or worse than a more conservative approach, just that it's going to win bigger when it wins and lose bigger when it loses. Skink combo, Noble Quest with no Ancient Map, no Wood Elf/Gates for Pilgrimage, low unit/support count in general: it could make for some pretty rough openings.

2) The Reanimator list doesn't seem nearly as good as the Empire list. Stunty Smasha, Snotling Saboteurs, Advanced Engineering, and Smash-Go-Boom all seem like less than ideal choices. I could maybe see a singleton Smasha if you're running Countess. Vitamin T's lists from recent events are solid. Or, the winner from the Polish Regional: http://deckbox.org/sets/49090. Either of these lists looks like a big improvement in the Empire matchup.

I fully expect Empire to get hit with the nerf bat unless. Even if Haunted City is beatable, it's still a "negative playing experience," as they say (used to say?). Still, I think there are at least three, and maybe four or five, decktypes that have game against it.

1) like i told you, that was my list and I specified alrdy that there are other players preferring the cards you wrote about. about useing just 3 quests, there are always other players who think is better to have 3 ancient map + 3 quest exactly like you said. this is a deck that works all in the quest zone, all developments there, being able in few turns to use pilgrimage for zero even w/o wood elfs and city gates,

2) we have been playing orc control for rly a long time and i can assure you that my version (but like always there are many differents) is quite better than vitaminT one, he is more aggressive, mine is more control oriented. Anyway as you can guess, the choice of smash-go-boom, stunty smasha comes from a need to control the more developments in order to keep balance against verena. as for advanced engeenering instead, being a magic the gathering player, I find it rly powerfull, i'll explain you why:

which is the best form of advantage in these cards game? cards number in the hand. but more exactly the right removal or the right pick and the right time. actualy advanced engeenering is a "permament" that gives you 1P and make you Scry2 (scry is a magic ability that makes you look at the first two cards of your deck and reassange them in any order, even on the bottom of it).

about instead sabouters, you guys prefer "burn it", I prefer the sabouters for several reasons:

1) i do player developments in the realm just for innovation (which you guys changed with warpstone)

2)i prefer to drop them in game, use them to gather resourses and draw card and then sacrifice them to destroy a support card. Also being an unit I can get them back with iseara, attack and then sacrifice them again to clean a zone maybe.

well maybe these 9 cards you spotted me are due our strong verena meta, I guess that's why you don't understand the reason why I play them. Anyway I can assure this is just one of the many version of reanimator deck being played in italy, as I guess even in your country no1 has the same list as the winner (actualy since his victory I guess many other gonna copy it xD).

now I'll make you a question, how many ppl have been partecipating at the event?

I do like the idea of combining Stuny Smashas with development killers to try to make a Verena backfire, but Smash-Go-Boom won't work since it's your turn only. If you're running 3x Long Winter like the Polish list, I think Stunty Smasha is probably worth it (though it wasn't in the list). Without them, he seems pretty marginal.

I really can't see the case for Snotling Saboteur. Even if you leave him in Kingdom a turn, you're still overpaying by two versus Burn It Down (which isn't necessarily the card I would have in his place, but is one to consider). If you have Countess on the table against Empire and can't find anything better to do with six barrels than blow up a Derricksburg Forge, you've probably already won (or lost).

Advanced Engineering would be amazing if you were always drawing one card per turn. It would be slightly better if you weren't forced to put one of the cards on the bottom. It's still a hammer for two, so it's never going to horrible, but I just don't see it making the cut in this deck, especially when you kind of want supports to have loyalty due to Troll Vomit. I would switch these out for Alliance banners, but it probably wouldn't make a huge difference.

I do think Warpstones are quite a bit better than Innovation against Empire, even with the possibility that they will get moved to the battlefield. Empire wins by card denial and Warpstones are free cards. You can always Pillage it or play a Grimgor after you're in control.

This deck plays a lot in the 0 phases, all spells "play only during your turns" are always played during the 0 phase with the remaining resources, that's why i play x2 smash go boom.

Like I told you are different point of view but as you can see the core is almoust similar in each deck, anyway the reason why I prefer innovation to warpstone is actualy your same answers, since our meta is fullfilled with empire verena/quest decks, I wouldn't dare to risk playing a card they could use against me.

I just can't see much benefit to taking out Empire's developments unless you are doing it in response to Judgment, which has to be on their turn.

I dunno, my Empire lists don't seem that much different from what you guys are playing, and in my testing the Reanimator does pretty well against it. It doesn't win every game, but it's easily 50/50 even without the Long Winter/Stunty package, which I have to think would make it a favorite. Maybe I'm just better at playing the Reanimator than anyone in my group (myself included) is at playing Empire...

Actualy being experienced with a build is for sure the first form of card advantage. Anyway all this talking about smash go boom made me think about it, and I promise you I'll be testing it a bit trying to find something better to replace with. Just wait few days and let's see how it goes, i'll report you my testing.

I'm probably missing something, but from what I can tell there no cards in the game that can destroy a quest. Maybe the answer is to just print targeted quest removal as a neutral tactic at 2 or 3. Basically, a narrow but strong answer to quests.