Here's my second place decklist from the Baltimore, MD Regionals:

3x Peasant Militia
3x Huntsmen
3x Nimble Spearman
2x Knights Panther
3x Rodrik's Raiders
3x Friedrich Hemmler

3x Innovation
3x Long Winter
1x Ancient Map
3x Will of the Electors
3x Judgement of Verena
2x Pilgrimage

3x Visit the Haunted City

3x Contested Village
3x Derricksburg Forge
3x City Gates
3x Church of Sigmar
3x Light of Morrslieb

I don't think I'd change any card in hindsight. There was never a game that I wasn't in complete control of -- even games 2 and 3 of the final round, that I ended up losing. In that round, against another Empire control deck, second game I drew my last card with my opponent having only one card left in his deck. Then in game three, my last attack was one damage short of winning the match and I decked again on my next turn.

T mentioned it in another thread, but I think exploiting Visit the Haunted City is the way to go. So much so that I was testing another deck that ran 3x each of Ancient Map and A Noble Quest and didn't even run the 9-card Judgement package.

I expect Judgement to join the restricted list soon and Visit the Haunted City to become unique (or join the list as well).

I got the feeling from Lukas at the FFG regional that some kind of change to Haunted City is Likely (probably becoming unique).

Were city gates better for you than something like hidden grove would have been? It looks like a strong empire list.

TL

Now you feel the OP coming from judgement package and the new quest, when months ago we italians were talking about that, no1 were even listening at us...to much busy talking about how dangerous were DE, nothing compared to the new empire.

I doubt making the quest unique will resolve the balance on the game, it will be much better to put it directly in the restricted list with verena.

I went with City Gates (and Nimble Spearmen) for protection and speed against other Judgement decks. And there were some times in testing where 6 2-cost, 2-loyalty supports (Church and Grove) in the deck made for some frustrating first turns (I HATE paying for loyalty icons :-P ). Plus, without City Gates, I was filling one zone (usually Quest) with developments for insurance against JoV+WotE+LW. Gates let me do both side zones at the same time. And it makes Long Winter a bit more versatile.

The Groves were hit or miss (or harmful) in the mirror during testing. Soooo... let your opponent play it for you and use the ability to your advantage when you can.

I stand by that choice if you're expecting to face a lot of control (which I was - and did). If I'd expected lots of fast rush decks with Skaven, I might change my mind.

I wouldnt say that no one believed that Empire was going to be the best deck. I had said that I thought empire was the best deck even before Visit the Haunted City came out.

I wouldnt say that no one believed that Empire was going to be the best deck. I had said that I thought empire was the best deck even before Visit the Haunted City came out.

I would add Infiltrate to protect yourself against decking and gaining even more control- awesome card.

If you have damage problems the third knights panter is probably totally worth it.

f7eleven said:

Stop asking for restriction. Look at Vitamin T's deck, he didn't need to play Empire to win at the FFG LCG days. Try to be creative, you don't need limitation, this is how the metagame would have to work.

Djibi said:

Nice deck, at first!

I guess everyone around here can be "creative", I don't see any boring discussion about strategies and deckbuilding...I just see Verena winning (or getting 2nd place...very rare) almost everywhere. And good ideas do nothing against brokens.

Visit the Haunted City is totally wrong as well as the whole environment around "Verena" (known as the "evil granny" eheh), IMHO, 'cause I see it the only unlimited card in the game that gets direct advantage frome a basic game mechanics (playing developements)...This means that you cannot prevent me from gettin' the token (aside targetting the unit, obviously) and that if I get it out before you do in a mirror match, I'll probably win, 'cause turn 2 you won't get the things you planned to get.

And then, it's not unique. Two of 'em in play and it's over.

I cannot see any other card like that: Mining Tunnels had the same impact and there it goes: "restricted". Warpstone? Restricted.

Fine with them.

But I really see a deserved restriction for lots of cards before "Soul Stealer".

I'm not complaining just to do it: I wrote my thoughts to ffg and I'm still playin' with passion. But I do think, I repeat, that there are some "playtesting" issues to be solved...

And, as someone knows, I'm an Empire/Dark Elf player: I do like control decks...

But that's not "controlling", that's "annoying".

Djibi said:

I think the issue is actually that, right now, you either play the Visit the Haunted City Empire deck, or you build a deck specifically to play against that deck. I don't believe anything else is viable at the moment. And that's not a good thing for the play environment.

That said, I don't believe Verena needs to be added to the Restricted list. It's a very strong card, but it can be recovered from.

I do believe that Visit the Haunted City is a horribly broken card. At the very least, it needs to be Unique. My guess is that it will need to not only be made Unique, but also added to the Restricted list (and no, I don't think Wilhelm would be the auto-pick between the two for Empire decks, were it added to the Restricted list, even if it was made Unique as well. I think it's that good).

Papa

I agree with Papa Khann. While I dont feel like empire is unbeatable at the moment it is clearly the strongest archtype and you must either play it or play to beat it. Haunted city is certainly more deserving of being restricted than Whilhelm in my opinion.

Vitamin T said:

Hi guys,

Vitamin T made this point but I see it a lot in different formats, essentially all saying the same thing: the deck is too tough. Now, I'm by no means a card game lifer so maybe I'm just a stupid n00b, but isn't this the kind of thing people talk about when they discuss meta? Sure, W:I doesn't have the card pool to support as many archetypes as, say, Magic, but if enough anti-Verena decks enter the mix then won't there be an incentive to playing non-Verena decks that aren't vulnerable to the anti-Verena decks? Maybe there aren't enough players at these tourneys to get the right mix?

Lots of great points are made in these forums but I think that part of the issue is the community, in my mind, is still kind of small. In a small community some success will be seen and everyone will copy it, then lament the lack of other options to combat the copied deck. Thing is, all these people are talking to each other on the same forums... I dunno, I don't think we should get as down on the game as we are getting. Vitamin T won a king of the hill tourney with Chaos! Chaos! A race that is habitually dissed every single time there is a card preview!

It'd be great to see creative decks making it, and we don't really know how many are out there doing well on here.

/ramble

OP: Congrats on the silver medal! I feel your pain over losing the almost-mirror-match.

I didn't mean to come across as being down on the game at all. I think the game has a very good set of mechanics driving it, and I'm actually quite enthusiastic about the game.

I just have a problem with Visit the Haunted City. Imho, most deck designs are going to have a tough time accomplishing much against it. It's tough when the other guy is pushing all your support cards up to the Battlefield. Using a Quest card no less (meaning it can't be removed from play... and no, I don't want to see a "magic bullet" card to destroy quests, because I don't want to have to pack it in every deck I make).

Papa

And I totally didn't mean it sounded like you were saying "I'm 10 seconds away from dropping this unbalanced game! WAAAAARGH!" You have balanced points, but you know what I mean when I say that sometimes the points are less balanced.

"..The points made by other people on this topic are less balanced" is what I meant to say.

I totally agree with you Happy. I think that there are decks out there that will beat Empire and decks that those decks are vulnerable to. However the events and really the community as a whole is small enough that things frequently dont make it past the stage of "X Deck is the best so I'll play that'. Going into the world championships almost everyone thought that HE bolt thrower, not dwarves, was the best deck. I played an anti-support card dwarf deck and was able to defeat Bolt Thrower many times on the way to the top. (I think that a version of the empire thrower deck I played against in the semis was probably the best deck at the time though)

I feel like there are some Orc and Chaos builds (maybe some dwarf decks also) that have a more than 50% win rate vs empire. Probably not by a lot, Empire is very strong and if you have out two manned Visits with a morrslieb in play almost nothing can beat that, but still an over 50% rate in my opinion.

Of course everything will likely be turned upside down by the upcoming legends expansion, but I still feel that either Judgement or Visit (perhaps both) would be better selections for the restricted list that Whilhelm. During the two events that I won at FFG last weekend I played against empire quite a bit. I'm pretty sure that whilhelm trigged his action against me 0-1 times. He did some damage and he was in play during some of the games I lost but really he could have been black knight of morr and done the same thing.

TL

Papa Khann said:

I had some success with another Empire deck not being Verena/Haunted/Dev-Control beating Verena and any other deck thrown at me - but only with empire.

I think I'm pretty balanced in my comments. I'm not leaving the game, I'm not hatin' FFG, I'm not cryin'. I just write my point of view and my point of view is based on what I see. Happy to hear that I can be wrong, but what I see it's clear: Empire is not unbeatable anymore, but it's...kind of.

Wilhelm is one of the most broken cards in the game, especially in an environment where VTHC is not restricted and unique neither. Grow up your kingdom zone, get 100 resources and 1 card per turn, let's see who'll win.

Yes: you can get back from Verena...BUt you can't recover after it if the same deck as options to:

- control Supports;

- contro Units;

- move stuff around;

- do 5+ damages attacks, as well as an orc deck (Wilhelm + Panthers + Pistoliers/Taal);

- move back to hands units;

- and so on...

The best thing of LCGs are FACTIONS: each faction has always been full of good thematic capabilities...but still "weaknesses"...And Empire is the only faction that has no weak points right now (Orcs are fine).

And the comparison with Magic is not that good: not because I didn't get it, but because Magic is exactly what W:I is right now; 2-3 decks competition. I don't know if there are ex-Magic players around...I can make lots of example, if needed.

And again: I've always said that VITAMIN T read perfectly the meta: the main deck is a unitless combo? Break the meta: go anti-support...great choice, great reward! I did almost the same thing in a local tournament at that time and built I think one of the first Orc Control decks around...But THROWER wasn't unbeatable. It's never been.

Verena/VTHC decks are "perfect". I see them winning again the best builds around (Orc Reanimation/Control, Orc Rush...).

Chaos is finally gettin' out the black hole, Orc Reanimator/control deck is powerful and some Dark Elves are doing great...But Verena is still at the top, even where it's not the most played deck (avoiding the criticism of the ones who say that it wins because 80% of players plays it).

I'm not a "tier 1" deckbuilder, but I know some t1 builders around here and in our country...And I trust 'em as well as I trust you.

You say that things are gettin' better? I believe it, maybe I can see it too...But I'm pretty sure of what I see: THE DAMNED GRANNY is stil on top of the meta and needs to be restricted with VTHC being restricted or made unique.

I am still very new to W:I, but for me, what is happening is just what I expected from a "Living" Card Game. The dynamics shift and at different points in time, some factions and strategies will emerge as dominant, only to be replaced by others as new cards and play mechanisms and possibly restrictions are made available.

I think to design a meta game in which all factions are balanced at any point in time is virtually impossible and would be very restrictive for the design and the content of the battle packs ad extensions. But I do not have a problem with a temporary dominance as it is part of the challenge and fun to continue to adjust your play style to the shifting powers and options during the games lifecycle. Even if there is a dominance for a while, at some point it will be mitigated (or rather moved) and in the mean time even if I win against such a deck only 1 time out of 4, it is all the more satisfying when I do. Some of it is down to luck I guess, but I still find it satsifying to think about how I can counter the supposedly unbeatable decks.

I feel the same way Tako. Usually when a cycle of battle packs ends things are pretty close to balanced. At the end of the corruption cycle everything but high elves could put out a playable deck while at the end of the enemies cycle everyone other than chaos had a playable list.

I tested f7eleven's deck quite a bit and I'm not so enthusiastic about it. City Gates are only nice in a starting hand. In mid-game they are just development fodder. There are not enough units in this deck to quest on Visit the Haunted City and attack at the same time. To my mind this deck needs 20 units or more. I would skip the single Ancient Map and Pilgrimage. I played against Mono Chaos built around Sorcerer of Tzeentch and decked out mainly because of my lack of blast power.

That would be a concern for me as well.

About the list...He did well, so my advices are "in general", taking into account different metas and points of views.

- City Gates is to heavy...Not that needed in THIS deck: fine tune the rest and you won't need it anymore. I'd prefer puttin' in a bunch of more units or tactics.

- Ancient map is the "4x VTHC": if your deck relies a lot on it (as an Empire-Control deck should, right now) leave it.

- Pilgrimage is a must, IMHO: with VTHC the deck has to rely on Quest more than KZ or battlefield. It's a free "bounce", basically, on turn 3. For the same reasons, I'd change:

1- Wilhelm: cornerstone. Costs 1 less than Hemmler (that can be played as a "tech", maybe 1x) and destroys completely the oppo's strategy: with VTHC and him moving stuff around, in a couple of turn you decide what to do of the opponent's capital...basically.

2- followin' the same building-line, you've to play without Innovations. Not that bad. Put in the third Pilgrimage and some "A noble Quest" (definitely destroys the oppo in a mirror match and makes the quest work the same turn it comes out. If you pull out the quest turn 1 with it, you can do lot of tactical damage)...In mirror matches, it's always a "draw VTHC first" contest.

3- I'd prefer stuff like Pistoliers + Taal (the only 2-card interaction that can win games alone). You get an incredible resources boost, draw lots of cards and destroy stuff with 4-5 powers attacks. If you don't like Taal, I'd keep Pistoliers, tough.

4- add the third panther: it's a "quest" beast, that lets you use unspent resources in the best way (card draw). A powerful start can be: Forge in the Kingdom, Quest + Panther + Noble quest in QZ...If the oppo doesn't catch you soon...it's over.

- Contested Village and Derricksburg are almost the same card: try Bottomless mine to speed up a bit, but only if you add more units. If not, keep villages in.

- I'd splash in Demolition.

Those are just a bunch of advices: consider 'em or ignore 'em...Just my 2 cents.

Bye!

DB

I tested and tweaked my deck for the mirror match. City Gates is good in the mirror and works well with Innovation and Long Winter. In a more balanced environment I could easily see Hidden Grove taking that slot. Wilhelm is always overrated for me. He's good but never as good as I think he should be. And since I'm focused on getting Haunted City(ies) up and running ASAP, Wilhelm's ability isn't as important as beating with Hemmler before you deck. DB is right that Pilgrimage is really good in the deck. Especially before they know I'm running it. I had Called Back initially, but in the mirror I was stacking devs in the Quest to protect against Verena so the switch was natural. I'd love to get the third Knights Panther into the deck. Not sure what I'd cut.

Well folks, if You wanna know what deck wins 80-90% tournament games in Poland, try this:

3x Peasant Militia
3x Huntsmen
3x Nimble Spearman
3x Grail Knight
3x Rodrik's Raiders
3x Wilhelm of the Osterknachts
2x Flagellants

2x Long Winter
1x Chain Lightning
3x Ancient Map
3x Will of the Electors
2x Judgement of Verena
3x Pilgrimage
3x Iron Discipline

3x Visit the Haunted City

3x Contested Village
3x Derricksburg Forge
3x Church of Sigmar
2x Hellblaster Volley Gun

This deck was (more or less in that shape) created by Cogito, one of the best Polish players. The strategy is simple - forget about expanding Kingdom, get the VTHC as fast as You can. Together with Wilhelm/Verena/Pilgrimage You`ll never have any problems with enemies guarding zones. Develop Battlefield and strike coup de grace with Hellblaster if you want to win faster. After Cogito had published his deck in the web, everyone is playing it - in tournaments in Warsaw in top 5 there are always at least three players using this deck. Please prove me wrong, but in my opinion the only answer to such decks is Orc rush combined with quick Vomit and lots of luck. So if anyone from FFG reads this forum - please do something with VTHC before half of all players will play it an the other frustrated half will say "f**k this game, I`m quit".