Hello All

I was wondering if anyone had any sales info (or know where I could find it) on this edition of WHFRP and its supplements ? I am a massive fan and throughly enjoy the game - and so I am interested to know how well it is doing up against games such as Pathfinder and D&D ?

There are quarterly sales reports put out by really only one group (I'll see if I can still round that up for you..or you could do a search here because it's in one of the posts since 2009). Also you might consider looking at the AMazon sales ranking of various items.

It is nowhere near pathfinder or D&D in terms of sales. It's like greeting cards. Hallmark has 95% of the market, 4% goes to Leanin Tree and 1 percent to the remainder My guess is that D&D is 80% of the market, Pathfinder 10% and everyone else 10%.

jh

Here's your link: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_resultados.asp

Here's the INDUSTRY link: www.icv2.com/articles/news.php

Sales quarterly, etc..

jh

According to this, Pathfinder and D&D are neck & neck. WHFRP is in third place.

That was for Q3 of 2010. In the next quarter D&D was in 1st place again, Pathfinder in 2nd place (no longer tied with D&D), and unfortunately warhammer FRPG was no longer in any of the top 5 spots. Here is a link to the stats for Q4 2010.

Alright, let's hear some opinions on why this is the case.

My theories:

1. Initial release of the boxed set set high sales marks for those who were going to purchase the game. That has dropped off.

2. The scattered release system of this game hinders new player onboarding (#1 question I get is "where the heck do I start with this game?"). Specifically, people would buy the boxed set, but they're not getting "all that they desire." To buy the books, you've got to buy 6 things (books and vaults) and you still only get one set of dice and perpetual rumors that you don't get a complete 'winds of magic' system with the books doesn't help.

3. M&M and Dragon age have 'come of age.'

4. This article speaks the truth: www.icv2.com/articles/news/19879.html

5. Kids like the "more avenues to break" aspect of futuristic games such as DH/DW/RT compared to WFRP (and let's admit, 40k is more popular in the miniatures battle realm as well). You've got THREE lines going here. Imagine if you had WFRP Empire, WFRP Greenskin Campaign, and WFRP Naggaroth/Lustria campaigns with books on the shelf! There are 100,000 posts on the 40 rpg forums combined and only 36,000 here..again, missed opportunities.

6. I'm glad to see PF give D&D a run for it's money. It's healthy competition and keeps conventions interesting..especially with the LIVING campaign aspects that have been so successful at conventions for the past 15 years.

7. The die-hard, loyal supporters of WFRP have been cloven in twain. Gone are the days of people writing and demanding scenario contests and fan-written support material on a platform/website that put up such resources. Its hard to be loyal to a company that doesn't have that "allowance" from GW the way that BI had that.

jh

..

I have no idea. All I know is that warhammer FRPG 3e is one of the best RPG systems I have ever invested in. I am VERY happy with my purchase. And, I wouldn't put too much stock into why it didn't do as well in Q4 as it did in Q3. To be honest, one of the reasons might be because it did so well in Q3, and because the game did not have a whole lot of new books available in Q4. The RPG market tends to be a market in which a person will purchase any given product only once. That means that in order to sustain top positions in market share sales a game has to continually pump out new splat products. This game gets new splat products, but it seems to me that it gets new splat products at a slow pace. I wouldn't be surprised if the quarter in which Omens of War is released sees a surge of sales for WFRPG 3e... but I guess we will see.

FFG produces a pretty big diversity of products. They still prduce Red November and I can't imagine that's causing any ripples on ICv2.

They'll at least give us Black Fire Pass before closing up the WFRP 3E releases permanently. In my short foray into this edition I've gotten comfortable enough with it to try my hand at homebrew stuff so no matter what announcements (if any) FFG makes at Gen Con I'll be waving cards and tracking tokens around for years. Lacking that, I'll be willing to throw down some 2nd or 1st edition grim and perilous adventure for anyone that wants in on it :-)

Don't worry about sales figures. Not much any of us can do beside support products we like and hope they keep on comin'. OH and you too will go through an edition death if you stick with it long enough (one year, 6 years...it'll happen). I have cookies, tea and "I survived the death of WFRP" t-shirts for when the time comes for interested parties :-)

I think WHFRP is a great game - I have followed it through all editions and will continue to do so -

I guess only time will tell how it competes against other fantasy systems although I do have a concern in regards to its accessability to new comers to the game - it is a daunting prospect to undertake the collection of all the different products available to buy - and some may find the D & D Red Box , Dragon Age or soon to be released Pathfinder Intro Box Set or New LOTR RPG a more realistic purchase both for access and affordability,

Long live WHRFP.

If they do, they will be missing out. WFRPG 3e offers something that D&D and Pathfinder can never hope to give (I am not putting those games down. In fact, I also really enjoy D&D 4e. But, those game systems do not offer the same type of game experience that WFRPG 3e does). I have no idea what Dragon Age can or cannot offer, but I am willing to guess that its experience is fairly different from a game of WFRPG as well...

I think WFRP is the kind of game that will appeal to more "hardcore" gamers. The gamers that don't mind the investment that it entails. I'm sure sitting on the shelf in a store it is daunting as hell to a new player but someone who is looking at Red Box probably isn't the target audience for a game like this. Ironically, I think WFRP with all its cards and tracking tokens would be very easy for a new player to follow, learn and enjoy. But I also think it requires an experienced GM to run it.

I've played D&D 4e since it's release and came to WFRP looking for something different and in 25 years of gaming it is probably the best system I've ever seen. I hope to win over my weekly group with it and maybe they'll buy some too. In this way I hope it continues to grow and gets the sales it deserves. I'm sure FFG understands that it's a hardcore gamers game and figures their sales goals accordingly.

Speaking of how WFRP3 is for hard core, experienced gamers and not n00b's, I did a recent comparison of the components of D&D to WFRP3 here: forum.rpg.net/showthread.php

There is a significantly larger aspect of "components" to WFRP3 beyond 4e D&D, hence why players probably aren't n00bs (or lazy idiots that can't count for that matter either).

The demographic of WFRP3 has always been more international than D&D though too hasn't it?

jh

I looked over that list of "components compared," and I don't know that it is either very objective or fair. To be honest, I think WFRP 3e is actually a little easier to play than 4e D&D (as opposed to being more complicated, which is what your post suggests). I find it much faster/easier to add/substract a few fortune/misfortune dice to a dice pool, and then quickly tally up which dice cancel each other out, than remembering which half-dozen situational modifiers I need to apply to any d20 roll, and then performing the required addition and subtraction. Not that I find either particularly difficult. But, as I said, I do find the WFRP 3e mechanics slightly easier to use, and faster to adjudicate as a result. In fact, one of my biggest beefs with 4e D&D is that it is a little overly complex in combat, and as a result many combats take forever to resolve. I prefer a game that moves through combat encounters somewhat faster (while still making those combat encounters memorable).

I also don't think it is fair to say that WFRP 3e is more "international" than D&D. In fact, based on its sales, I would say that D&D has the larger international audience.

Rather, I think johnmatrix86 has the right of it. WFRP 3e appeals to more "hardcore" gamers because: a) it is a niche product that caters to people who like a very specific style (read: gritty) of game (not something john said, but something I would like to add to what he said); and b) it will appeal more to the types of gamers who do not casually spend a 20-30 dollars here and there, but religiously collect RPG games (and are willing to meet the price point required to do so). In this case, "hardcore" doesn't mean less lazy, more intelligent, not a n00b, or better at math. "Hardcore", in this case, means willing to spend a lot of money on RPGs, and also, I think, a subjective preference for games that really put characters through the blender (via mechanics like critical wounds that weaken characters, permanent wounds that weaken characters, fatigue, stress, insanity, and the like).

I don't know if I agree that WFRP is for hardcore gamers, at least hardcore roleplayers, so I'll offer a dissenting opinion...

I consider myself a "noob", and while 3 other players in my group like to play games, I wouldn't call them hardcore by any means. My group really only has 1 person I would describe as "hardcore" and that's our GM - howdy dvang! The rest of us are board and card gamers primarily, with little to no RPG experience (at least not in this millennium). I think the most rules-heavy game we regularly play is either Settlers of Catan or Citadels.

Though the price-tag might seem high to traditional roleplayers, I really think this product is aimed at people who play FFG's other big-boxed boardgames, who like high production values and pretty bitz, and who aren't as put off by the $100 entry point. In my experience, hardcore gamers - especially RPers - tend to be pretty conservative in their choices, and quick to judge anything deemed too outside the norm. For a lot of staunch roleplayers, I imagine WFRP 3E sits pretty far outside their comfort zone.

Now, on a very special episode of "My So-Called Warhammer":

I wanted to play WFRP 3E because it represented something different than all the other RPGs I saw sitting on the shelf. And that something - along with some great visuals - was enough to make a noob like me buy it, seek out a group and play it. As a seriously closeted roleplayer, that was way out of character for me, but I felt WFRP 3E was just too cool to pass up.

P.S. Like Bloody Sun Boy, I would say I'm an experimental person when it comes to games, and so is my group. Perhaps that has more to do with it?

You make some very good points Yipe. My usage of the term hardcore definitely referred to a willingness to drop wads of cash on a well-designed game and to not being intimidated by a system as complex, and blessedly different, as WFRP. Myself, I'm a roleplayer who loves great mechanics that I can sink my teeth into and this game has those in spades.

That's a pretty neat account to hear, Yipe! Thanks for sharing! I'm not sure exactly how I would peg WFRP3 in terms of its appeal. I also bought in because I recognized that it was offering something *different* than other RPGs on the market. But then, I'm an experimental person by nature and someone who isn't afraid to step outside of my comfort zone. Ultimately, my buy-in is owed to the fact that I love the setting and I wanted to see if/how FFG would use unique game design to bring that setting to life. Though it's not perfect (is there anything that ever truly is?), I've been very pleased and surprised with the really cool places they've managed to take the game. All because FFG was willing to take some risks. I can't condemn them for that.

Intresting. I wasn't using the term "hardcore" to mean "hardcore roleplayer," but, as happenstance would have it, I am a hardcore roleplayer. What got me into this game is that I feel that it does a much better job of fostering roleplaying than D&D 4e (which I also love, but I felt appealed more to my gamey moods).