If you have a unit questing on Wolves of the North, do you attack first and then draw cards, or do you draw cards and then attack.

It reads during your quest, so I'm not sure on the sequence. My gut tells me to attack and then draw cards.

The rules say :

Phase 2 : Quest phase

Active player counts power in his quest zone and draws that many cards from the top of his deck.

Actions may be taken by either player.

The text of the quest says :

Action : During your quest phase, blablabla...

So it is an action that should be activated during your quest phase, so you may attack after you draw cards.

We have a nice discussion here right now but cant agree. So i post it here and hope for answers.

Can a corrupted unit attack, when it is questing on wolves of the north?

No. There is general ruling that any effect that uses "can not" in its description wins over any other effect. And if you check Rules for WHI, it says that "Corrupt cards cannot be declared as attackers or defenders." And unless the effect mentions "corrupted units" (such as Khorvak), it can not beat effect of "corrupted".

The "cannot"-rule was outruled because it is only valid on effects. An "getting corrupted" is the effect.

But "being corrupted" is not an effect, it is a condition a card is in.

The main point in the discussion is how much of the cardtext overrules the normal rules (as in cardtext beats rulestext).

The card says you can attack. With no restrictions whatsoever.

Natarko said:

Wolves of the North should probably have ", if able." at the end of its text. But I agree with BBSB12 that it doesn't overrule the base rule of "corrupted units cannot attack". If you assume the WOlves of the North text overrides all attack restrictions, it allows you to do clearly ridiculous things like attack with a unit that has fatal damage on it.

If the rules text of a card contradicts the text of this rulebook, the rules on the card take precedence.

That is the text about the Golden Rule. I am not sure, but in my opinion, the quest doesn´t contradict the rule about the condition of the attacking unit. It only contradicts the rule, that you have to attack from your battlefield in your battlefield-phase. Is this a possibility to explain the right way of playing Wolves of the North?

I agree with entropy on one thing. It should be clarified!

@Entropy: I dont know what your aiming for. How can you attack with a "dead" unit. As soon as it takes fatal damage it is discarded, right?

The card is restricted enough imho. You can attack only with the questing unit and only in your questphase. Hardly an everytime-matchwinner.

If the developer would have the attack restricted further, he should have it mentioned on the card. As written it allows me to attack! With NO other restriction but "questing" and "questphase". So if this contradicts the rules in any way, the card takes precedens (sp?). And it just say "I can attack".

I know i seem a little stubborn here.

And as i posted in the german forums, remember that no "battlefieldphase" is initiated, just an attack. So imho the "normal" rules for attackers are ..... a little debatable.

Natarko said:

My point about a dead unit is that yes, the normal rules say as soon as a unit takes fatal damage it is discarded, but if you assume Wolves of the North overrides other rules, you could assume that it allows you to attack with that unit no matter what state it is in, corrupted, dead, wearing an attachment that prevents it from attacking, etc. Its a silly argument. Heres a better one from the FAQ:

"Corrupt cards cannot be declared as attackers or defenders."
"If an effect has the word “cannot” in its description, then that effect is absolute, and it cannot be overridden by other effects."

You'll notice that other cards in the game that allow you to attack with corrupt units specifically state that you can do so. Like I said, the card probably should say "If able" at the end, but that is unlikely to be changed. Lukas (the designer) doesn't like putting out errata for cards, and this card is probably not confusing enough to warrant errata.

Sorry to bother again (kind of ).

But, as i allready pointed out, "being corrupted " is NOT an effect, it is a condition. So please dont come at me with the "cannot" beats "can" - rule . "Becoming corrupted" is the effect! As i wrote earlier we allready ruled it out.

The card gives only two restrictions: "In your questphase " and "the questing unit" . If the card should follow all the rules otherwise, you wouldnt be allowed to attack with the unit at all.

As is writen in the rules (page 12 under "declare attackers" ) your unit has to be in the battlefield to be declared as an attacker. The card "wolves of the north"

mentions no exception to this rule. So if "corrupted = no attacker" holds true that must also hold true for "not in battlefield = no attacker", right?

@Confusing: This discusion might show it is.

Natarko said:

But "not in battlefield = no attacker" is contradict by the cards text (because of "in your questphase" and "the questing unit"). This is obviously the exception, that Wolves of the North is about. It states, that you can declare an attack from your questphase (instead of your battlefieldphase) and that the unit doesn´t have to be in the battlefield (because its about the questing unit) for being a legal attacker. But there is nothing about being a legal attacker, if the unit is corrupted. This restriction for attackers isn´t contradict by the cards ruletext.

So i believe, that my former post is a logical possibility to explain the correct ruling.

With your post, you give the explanation and examples, which parts of the cards text contradict the rules.

Natarko said:

I'm not sure who "we" is in this statement, since no one but you seems to think that its been ruled out.

Think of "Corrupt cards cannot be declared as attackers or defenders." as an effect that is active on all cards, all the time, set by the game rules. That effect doesn't get overridden by other effects like the "can attack from quest zone" on Wolves of the North.

I'm not sure what else to tell you at this point. I'm 99% certain that the intent of Wolves of the North is not for you to be able to attack with corrupted units. I've already agreed that it could be more clear.

Yeah it was already tried in a german board to convince Natarko but he just tried it here afterwards. I mean even the whi-rules-clarification-guru Entropy42 himself gave a plausible explanation so I guess there is no reason to further comment this.

@Grille: I didnt try it here afterwards! I asked it nearly simultanously, which you would have noticed if you had looked at the posting times.

@Entropy42: I see what you mean. But is "corrupted being an effect" stated somewhere in the rules or the faq. The discription doesnt mention anything about being an effect. It clearly states that the "getting corrupted" is the effect. That is whats driving me crazy.

It would be really no question , if i could find that part in the rules.

@Schmutzer and Entropy42:

You, and others, seem to think that the battlefield-restriction is negated by the phrase "the questing unit". But ruleswise a questing unit is just a unit put on a quest-card to activate the abilities of the quest. If this phrase would nullify any zone-resticrions on questing units it might get a little complicated with other cards. How do you come to this conclusion?

In my opinion the phrase "can initiate an attack" is the key-phrase why you can attack with the unit, though it is not in the battlefield.

To make my point a little clearer, let me show how i see the flow of the card:

"During your questphase" Check if it is my questphase. If it is, the action can be triggered.

"the questing unit on this card" Check if i have a questing unit. If i have, i can do....(something with this unit)

"can initiate a single attack ...." Initiate an attack by following the steps of an attack (p. 12 Rules).

Step 1: Declare target of attack. Card says: "against a single zone controlled by an opponent" -> Choose zone.

Step 2: Declare attackers Rules say: only units from battlefield Card says: "the questing unit can attack" Card beats rules! -> Unit can attack

Rules say: corrupted units can not attack Cards says: "the questing unit can attack" Card beats rules -> Unit can attack

Step 3: Declare defenders..........

So as long as nobody can show me ruleswise, that "being corrupted" is an effect (which would trigger the "cannot beats can"-rule for effects), the "card beats rules"-rule applies to both "cannot"-restrictions.

Hope this clarifies the things a little. Especally as Schmutzer agreed on the german board with me, that "being corrupted" is not an effect (hence the "we").

Natarko said:

Right, in my opinion, being corrupted doesn´t sound like an effect.

But i am also the opinion, that "the questing unit can attack" doesn´t override the rule, that corrupted units can´t attack. It only counters the rule, that an unit in your questphase can be declared as an attacker (during your quest-phase).

My point (and i think, that it is a logical one) is, that the cards text have to contradict the rules (like it is written in the rules for the Golden Rule). But nothing on the card Wolves of the North contradicts the rules concerning corrupted units as legal attackers.

I am not sure, if this will help you, but i could try it with this explanation:

If "being corrupted" is not an effect, but rather something like an units condition , the same will be true for "questing". It is some sort of the units condition . This condition makes clear, that the unit is on a quest in your questzone. That is, where the rules text of the card contradicts the rule (the unit is allowed to be in your questzone as a legal attacker), referring to some sort of condition . But nothing on the card suggests, that the other conditions for leagal attackers doesn´t count for the unit. There is no text on the card about "being corrupted", so there is no text, that contradicts the rules, and that´s why the Golden Rule won´t work.

I'm kind of running out of ways to explain this, but let me ask a question instead.

What if the unit on Wolves of the North was Marauding Giant?

Destruction only. Marauding Giant cannot attack or defend alone.

Do you still think that Wolves of the North allows him to attack?

To me, this is exactly the same as having a corrupted unit on the quest. In both cases, those units are prohibited from attacking by something in the rules that says they cannot attack. A corrupted unit is prohibited by an effect the base rules of the game, while the Giant is prohibited by a constant effect on his card that modifies the base rules of the game (which are that he is allowed to attack alone).

And yes, I agree that being corrupted is not an effect, but "Corrupted units cannot attack" is.

Entropy42 said:

The question is an easy one, i think, as you get two conflicting effects (one triggered by the quest, the other constant by the giant). So it is clear the giant cant attack (two effects coliding -> see "cant vs. can").

As i said before, there would be no question, if "being corrupted" is an effect.

Let me ask a counterquestion. What would happen, if the card-text would be something along the line of:

"In your questphase, if a unit is questing here, a unit named/a "trait" unit (insert unit name/"trait") can initiate a single attack....."?

Does the named / trait unit have to be in the battlezone to initate the attack? What if the named / trait unit has the card-text "quest only / kingdom only"?

So now you say the effect of being corrupted is "you cant attack or defend". And if it is, i would be glad. I have to think about this and look it up in the rules and faqs if there is something to prove that. Or can you quote the text that shows it, please?

@Schmutzer: Thank you for your clarification/explanation. But i have one question. What would be the wording for a corrupted unit to be allowed to attack? How should the card-text be, in your opinion, if it is intended to also allow a corrupted unit to attack.

As a sidenote: A friend of mine looked over the card, rules and faqs. And he said, the main problem is by the wording "can initiate a single attack" as "to initiate an attack" is nowhere defined in rules or faqs. But that is for another discussion.

Natarko said:

"Being corrupted" being an effect would not change anything, since the quest card doesn't override whether or not its corrupted.

In your example card, the unit has to be in the battlefield to attack, because the card only says that a unit is allowed to attack during your quest phase. It doesn't say that the unit can attack from anywhere.

Again, what are you trying to accomplish here? Do you want to know how to correctly play this card? Do you want the text changed? If the answer's we've given don't suit you, I would recommend you use the "Rules Question" link and post up what Lukas says in response. You are also welcome to lobby him to errata the text to be more clear, but no one here has the power to give an "official" answer or update the text.

Let me first say, that i really appreciate the time and effort you all have invested and still invest here to help me with this card. I know i am stubborn and might appear as an assh...

But i want a clarificaton on how to play this card that is backed up by the rules and faqs. If someone asks me, i want to be able to point to the text and say "here it is written..". As this is the rules-forum it was my first (okay second, after the german forums) place to come to.

So far unfortunatly nobody who opposes me seems to be able to back up his answer by the rules. And that is maddening me (Yes, call me a rules-lawyer, if you want). You and me work with assumptions and interpretations. I admitt that i also think the card was not planned to work with corrupted units, but if a player plays it so, i want to contradict it with a well grounded/founded explanation backed by the rules/faqs black on white.

@Entropy42: You answered only the first question. What is with the second? As i understand you, if a card would be allowed to be played only in a specific zone and the quest would allow that unit to attack, it could (against the rules) attack out of that zone, right? That is at least what i assume, because you allow a "questing unit" to cirrcumvent the rules just by being a questing unit ("must be played on a quest in the questzone"). I ask this just to understand your "ruling".

And "being corrupted" being an effect would matter a lot. Because if we deal with an effect, the "cannot vs. can"-rule would take effect as i mentioned more than once.

I ( or more precisly a friend) finally looked through the faqs and found out that "being corrupted" is a state a card is in (faq p.12, question about "Fellblade" and "Warpstone Excavation"). Unfortunatly again the rules/faqs mention nothing about what that means. But my assumption is that "a corrupted unit cannot attack or defend" is a rule about units in the state of "being corrupted" and not an effect. Especially as the rules mention only four kinds of effects (rules p.15) and there is nothing about a "state effect". Even "constant effects" need a card to "trigger" (rules p.15).

So we only have to discuss imho (and that was my question from the beginnig) how much and which part of the text overrides the rules! Here we seem to disagree mainly on: overrides the text "unit can attack" the rule (s. above) "cannot attack" concerning corrupted units.

As i have shown, hopefully to everyones satisfaction, that "cannot attack because of corruption" is a rule i stand by my opinion that the card-text overrules the rules-text. Because the card-text contradicts the rules imho by not excluding corrupted units.

Natarko said:

I didn't address the second part because I don't understand why it matters. "Quest Only" or "Kingdom Only" are just play restrictions. The card can't be played into that zone. Once its in play they don't really matter. The quest you put out doesn't allow that unit to attack from the Kingdom, regardless of what play restrictions it has. All it does is allow a single unit to initiate an attack during the Quest phase. Units that aren't in the battlefield can't attack. The quest you wrote doesn't change that. On Wolves of the North, its implicit that the unit can attack from the quest zone, because it specifies "questing unit" and that unit has to be in the quest zone to be questing.

If you want to see what the wording would look like for a card that allows a corrupted unit to attack, and from any zone, look at the Chaos hero Khorvak Grimbreath.

Limit 1 Hero per zone. Your corrupted Chaos units may attack from any zone.

Natarko said:

The rules don't clearly define what a game effect is, they just say there are "game and card effects". So I guess there is no way for me to prove to you that "Corrupted units cannot attack" is a game effect, and thus isn't overruled by Wolves of the North. My goal here, most of the time, is just to show people the correct way to play a card, such that they can go to a tournament with that understanding of the card and not be surprised. I would not advise anyone to attempt to play Wolves of the North in a tournament using your interpretation, as I think its pretty clear that the card is not intended to be used that way. I'll work on getting something official from Lukas though.

I'd also like to give another reason why that "Corrupt cards cannot be declared as attackers or defenders." must be a game effect and fall under the "cannot beats can" rule. If it doesn't fall under that rule, then tons of cards allow you to attack and defend with corrupt units, not just Wolves of the North. The rule would become almost meaningless, and would only prevent you from declaring basic attack and defense during the combat phase. Any actions that said "... unit can attack ..." or "...unit can defend..." would allow you to use corrupted units. There are probably a lot of rulings out there that already show that this is not how the game works.

Okay, here is the offical answer from Lukas Litzsinger:

"Natarko,

Thanks for the question. You cannot use Wolves of the North to attack with a corrupted unit, unless another effect allowed your corrupted units to attack. The Golden Rule only applies when card effects explicitly override rules. In this case, Wolves of the North is overriding the restriction that you can only attack from your battlefield during the battlefield phase by allowing the unit on the card to initiate an attack during the quest phase. However, the unit must still be able to be declared as an attacker, and If the unit is corrupted, then they cannot attack and the effect fizzles.

You should always attempt to reconcile card effects and rules as much as possible. In this case the card effect allows a unit to be declared as an attacker during the quest phase, but if the unit cannot be declared as an attacker for some other reason (like corruption) then it cannot take advantage of the effect. "

As i said before, i thank you all for your effort and time, especially Entropy42 and Schmutzer . It seems i have/had quite a different understanding of the "Card-beats-Rules"-mechanic.

idk if this is in the rules but i believe it was common sense although im unsure but can quests be played in other zones than the quest zone i dont remeber any rule specifically saying that although my friend brought it up im now alittle less sure

No, they can't (unless the quest says otherwise). Yes, its in the base rules.