Hello, I have complained multiple times on the forums that there's no legal way to make Space Marines in power armour sneak like Wolf Guard attached to Wolf Scouts, a Sicarius-buffed Ultramarines squad or Shrike and friends. After doing a bit of math I want to apologize for that. While Space Wolves and Ultramarines still can't it's possible with the Create your own chapter rules from RoB, namely one of the possible solo-mode powers.

"This chapter is highly skilled in certain areas of expertise. Choose any two skills. At Rank 1, your Chapter may re-roll failed Tests with these skills (once per attempt). At Rank 4, your Chapter gains a +10 to all Skill Tests using those skills. At Rank 8, your Chapter gains a bonus degree of success on any successful Skill Test using those skills."

If you choose Silent Move and Concealment as those skills you are actually even better off than with the gradual reduction of the -30 armour penalty on them I would have wished for. I had completely underestimated how powerful re-rolls are. Two examples:

Rank 1 Space Marine, basic training in the skill, Agility 45. -30 Armour Penalty, Performing a Challenging Test (+0)

Armour Penalty reduced by 10: 25% chance to pass the test.

Re-roll: 27,75 chance to pass the test.

Rank 8 Space Marine, full (+20) training in the skill, Agility 45. -30 Armour Penalty, Performing a Challenging Test (+0)

Armour Penalty reduced by 30: 65% chance to pass the test.

Re-roll and +10 bonus: 69,75% chance to pass the test.

Let the legal beaky-sneaking begin.

Mjoellnir said:

Actually I think once we see official rules for Ravenguard, they'll have the Wulf Senses in reverse (re-rolling Silent Move and Concealment, etc.).

Alex

Don't forget that silent move and concealment are opposed tests more often than not. Even if a PC sometimes fails one of these tests, most adversaries are either going to fail or do poorly on awareness tests.

ak-73 said:

While I would really love a dedicated Stealth solo-mode ability (an auto-pass at the highest rank like Wolf Senses would be incredibly funny) I don't believe that we would get it this year. Raven Guard is one of the first foundings that gets the least love. Maybe that will change when Deliverance Lost is released. Until then I'm happy that it's possible at all.

Decessor said:

That's maybe true, but a -30 penalty is still huge. You don't have to make it too easy for the xenos, heretics and traitors.

Mjoellnir said:

That's why you use a Stummer if you are intent on sneaking in PA. You'll only get the Hulking size penalty.

Alex

One of the things I wonder is whether the -30 is on top of the -10 for concealment rolls for being hulking? The Black carapace only gets rid of the bonus to hit you, not every aspect of being Hulking (which includes a -10% on Concealment). Does that mean Concealment rolls are at -40?

Truthfully not keen on the -30% rule as it is too sudden and a bit arbitrary. I personally feel each type of armour should have a specific penalty to it, based on an assessment of how easy it would be to sneak in it, rather than just a huge jump at AP 7. Carapace should get a penalty (though not a full -30) as it has large plates that could bang or scrape on each other. Power armour should normally be at a big penalty but there should be options to reduce it.

I'm ok with it. If I wanted to sneak, I'd take three stummers. I'm guessing that the -30 probably includes the -10 for size, at that would be the common-sense approach: To lump all the modifiers together when stating the modifiers.

Space Marines are shock troops, not a recon and stealth force. Even the Raven Guard are a shock force. If you want stealth you send in stealthy troops, which for Astartes means Scouts.

borithan said:

That's a good question. Personally I think that another penalty would be ridiculous, but the rules are separated nicely. -10 for hulking, -30 not for the armour that makes you hulking but for any armour that has a too high AP (poor Karandras).... So I guess if you want to get sneaky a Mk VI armour is important.

Siranui said:

Stummers are crappy, and Shrike would disagree with you. He and his detachment fought a two year guerilla war against Orks.

Stummers are bad?! for 15 points, you can negate the sneaky penalty, and another 20Req sees you in Chameoline which helps offset the Hide penalty. Bargain for those who swore on their last day as a Scout to never wear such silly armour again!

As a fictional character, he's welcome to do whatever the author desires, up to and including disagreeing with me.

Space Marines are still a strike force though; built for kicking in front doors, rather than as a guerilla force. You can use them for other jobs, but it's not what they're built for. You can use stealth to augment strikes, but they are still a strike force by nature, equipped with loud automatic weapons with bulky ammunition and armour that stops them sneaking!

Siranui said:

Well, Pedro Kantor, would disagree - but only after the Rynn's World incident. And only because the Crimson Fists don't have enough manpower anymore to be a full-fledged strike force. Thus they conduct more covert warfare operations.

Alex

Siranui said:

Stummers only work for 20 minutes. A chameoline cloak on the other hand should be standard issue.

Siranui said:

As a fictional character, he's welcome to do whatever the author desires, up to and including disagreeing with me.

All Warhammer 40k people including the characters we create are fictional.

Siranui said:

That's what the Emperor intended. But Spacies are more influenced by their primarch, and Corax was a guerilla. Russ was a big bad wolf, that's why Wolf Scouts can be accompanied by power armoured Wolf Guard, and Guillaume was a by-the-book allrounder strategist, that's why a few of Sicarius boyz can infiltrate in power armour.

Mjoellnir said:

Only 20 minutes... and then need an hour to recharge. To correct myself: FOUR stummers. Then you can have one on constantly and totally negate the penalty.

The Primarch... yes. But it's hard to be as good a guerilla as you can be when your weapon can be heard from ten miles away and has a huge muzzle flash, your armour is painted a solid shade, crushes anything you tread on, doubles your size, and prevents you from feeling that your leg is brushing up against a branch before you break it, and all your weapons fire huge shells that you can only carry a very limited number of. If the Raven Guard were truly a guerilla force and aiming to be as such, they'd be very differently equipped. The Marines certainly use stealth, but they make few -if any- sacrifices for it!

And I hold that over to DW too... I might go on a stealth mission, but you can have my power armour and bolter when you prize it off my corpse, and not before!

Siranui said:

Someone can sneak Baneblades behind a lava lamp.

Your argument is invalid

Siranui said:

I always interpreted the one hour to recharge as them having to be put into an AM-approved recharge unit while five techpriests sing litanies to revive their machine spirits.

Siranui said:

Hehe, guerilla tactics still worked between the replacement of the crossbow and the invention of the silencer. Sure, bolters can be heard and seen. But if you surprise you enemies, wipe them out and are gone before the reinforcements who heard it arrive that doesn't matter. I agree about the armour colours but my own chapter and the Deathwatch are mostly black.

Siranui said:

And I hold that over to DW too... I might go on a stealth mission, but you can have my power armour and bolter when you prize it off my corpse, and not before!

Amen to that Brother!

Hmmm... Never thought of it that way. Although: For 20 points being able to remove PA movement penalties = worth it for a specialist stealther. For only being able to do it for an hour = not worth it, ever.

I think in order to keep them worthwhile, I'll continue treating Stummer's hour-long recharge as 'cool down'. After all, other equipment that is 'one shot' and needs recharging (power fields after overload) don't have specific time-frames mentioned, and are clearly not supposed to be fixed 'in mission', whereas the Stummer's time limit would infer that it is.

I interpreted it like the rules to recharge lasguns. I think the stummer is meant to be deployed. It would be nice to have a higher-requisition version that you can plug right into the power supply of your armour.

It's probably worth querying with FFG. I'd not considered your interpretation before, and it seems the reverse is true. Either might be valid!