Once again apologies if this was asked before.

So I recently got a copy of Dunwich Horror and I'm reading up on the Tasks and Missions cards.

I get that you have to go to the locations in order but are allowed "side trips".

I also get that for Tasks for it to count you need to be at the specified area and have an AE, whereas Missions you have to make a sacrifice during the Upkeep phase.

And lastly if there is a gate at the specified area you can't have an encounter.

This last bit got me wondering - does using the special ability of a location (eg. the Asylum heal) constitute as having an AE for the purposes of these cards or must all encounters REQUIRE drawing a card from the location deck?

I SUPPOSE that the board does say for these locations "Instead of having an encounter...."

Thanks!

The task needs you to have an AE which means draw a card. So no special like a dissection. But you get the clue for progress straight away afterwards.

Missions are different. You have to survive an encounter and then still be at the location come the upkeep, which is when you make your sacrifice.

If I'm not mistaken, for Tasks and Missions you simply have to be at the specified location at the Upkeep phase in order to progress on a mission. I don't have the Dunwich rulebook with me right now, but I'm pretty sure that's how they work.

Dunwich Horror, p. 5:

"For Tasks, merely spending an Arkham Encounter Phase
in the listed areas is enough to complete each step.
However, for Missions, the investigator must additionally
discard or spend the listed sacrifice at each location at
the start of the Upkeep Phase. The investigator may
only discard or spend the listed sacrifice if he is still in
the listed area during the Upkeep Phase."

However, I think I recall that this is going to be changed when the FAQ comes out. Maybe so that both Tasks and Missions are completed during the Upkeep phase, like mi-go hunter says.

Yes, the FAQ will clarify "which" time the Task takes effect, though I should not say which.

The way I've been playing it is assuming that the Task is exactly the same as the Mission, so you get the clue only if you're there during Upkeep (and that "merely has an encounter" was just muddled wording). However, I can accept the interpretation that the sacrifice takes time , while merely having an encounter for a Task is sufficient because the encounter is your investigation.

avec said:

Avec, my memory suggests me the very same thing. IIRC, it was said that for both Tasks and Missions you have to be on the spot during the following Upkeep; the only difference is that Missions require a sacrifice. This problem was raised by this passage of the rules (DH, pag. 5, the example in the right box):

"Had Jim been working on a Task instead of a Mission, he would not have needed to make a sacrifice at each location. Instead, merely being present
in the location during the Upkeep Phase would have sufficed."

Anyway, to me "spending an Arkham Encounter Phase" in a location is quite different from having an encounter there; I'd say that you should be able to use the location special ability instead of drawing a card and still have a clue for your Task / Mission during the following Upkeep

Julia said:

Oh yeah. That. Well, technically, being in the location during the Upkeep Phase is almost certainly *sufficient* for completing the Task. It's just not *necessary.* If Jim is in the location during the Upkeep Phase, it almost certainly means that he was there for at least part of the previous Encounters Phase. Even if something weird happened, like he was at the Hospital, and for his encounter an ambulance driver offered to take him anywhere in Arkham, and he chose to go to the location that would complete his Task. Even then, he can complete the Task since he spent part of the Encounters Phase at that location.

Being at the location during the Upkeep Phase would be insufficient for completing the Task *only* if Jim had moved there during the Mythos Phase (i.e., after the Encounters Phase but before the Upkeep Phase). I can't think of any game effects that move investigators to locations during the Mythos Phase. So, technically, there is no contradiction between the rule and the example on page 5. The rule states that spending the Encounters Phase at the location is necessary to complete the Task. The example with Jim states that being at the location during the Upkeep Phase is sufficient to completing the Task. Both are correct.

avec said:

I'm not so sure I got your point. Let's say Jim has something to do at the Woods. The encounter at the Woods forces him to the street. In the Upkeep he is in the streets. Had it been sufficient having an encounter at the Woods, he'd receive the clue. If it's necessary being during the Upkeep at the location where he had the encounter, then no clue.

As a side note, there are a couple of Mythos moving you to locations. I think both are from Innsmouth (?): you're allowed to move the lowest Sanity (Stamina) player to the Asylum (Hospital) and be delayed to restore your Sanity (Stamina) to the maximum

avec said:

they are rarities, but there is at least one misty environment in KH that moves the FP to the hardgoing areas.

What I wanted to say before everything went yellow sign is that I also reckon there are going to be new tasks and missions for the other boards, a big box or 2 ahead...at least thats what I saw with my TARDIS....

Julia said:

That's the opposite of what I'm taking about. If you're in a location during the Encounters Phase, it doesn't imply that you'll be there during the next Upkeep Phase. However, if you're in a location during the Upkeep Phase, it almost certainly implies that you were there during at least part of the previous Encounters Phase.

Let's say that Jim is in the Woods and that he has a Task he'll complete if he spends an Encounters Phase in the Uptown Streets. He has an encounter at the Woods that moves him to the street. Since he spent part of the Encounters Phase in the Uptown Streets, he may complete the Task. In fact, if Jim is in the Uptown Streets during an Upkeep Phase, we may conclude that he spent at least some of the previous Encounters Phase in the Uptown Streets. Logically, we can say that both a) an investigator must spend part of an Encounters Phase at the location on the Task card in order to complete the Task and b) if an investigator is at the location on the Task card during the Upkeep Phase, the investigator must have been there during the last Encounters Phase. Therefore, the example on page 5 does not contradict the rule on page 5.

Good point about the Innsmouth mythos cards. I guess there's one exception to the above statement. For the Task "Newspaper Assignment," the first location is the Asylum. Let's say that an investigator has the Task but hasn't started it yet. If the Charity Chase mythos card is drawn, the investigator with the lowest Sanity may move to the Asylum. If the investigator with the lowest Sanity happens to be the one with the Task card, and he chooses to move to the Asylum, then he has managed to be in the Asylum during the Upkeep Phase without being there during the last Encounters Phase. So, for that case, and *only* that case, the example on page 5 contradicts the rule on page 5. (There is another mythos card that moves you to the Hospital. But there is no Task that involves being at the Hospital.)

dj2.0 - Fair enough, but it's irrelevant since none of the Task cards involve those areas. Though Miskatonic Horror may change that.

avec said:

Avec, I've got you're talking about the opposite, but the main point is that:

- in the example, it's stated you have to be in that location during Upkeep in order to collect the Clue for the Task
- in the rules, it's said it's enough spending the Arkham Encounter Phase there (regardless of where you will be during the next Upkeep)

Your example is a bit tricky: it clearly works if we have a Task requiring some time to be spent in the Uptown Streets; but it doesn't work if he had to do something at the Woods: according to the rules, even being moved to the Streets it's ok to get the clue (part of the AE Phase was passed at the Woods); it is not enough in case we follow the example (which requires an Upkeep at the Woods)

I have to concur with Julia. If a Mission specifically requires you to make a sacrifice during the Upkeep phase at the location listed on the card in order to receive a clue, then it should apply the same to Tasks as well.

Julia said:

Actually, technically it's not. The example says:

"Had Jim been working on a Task instead of a Mission, he would not have
needed to make a sacrifice at each location. Instead, merely being present
in the location during the Upkeep Phase would have sufficed."

Note the word "sufficed," which is a variation of "sufficient." As such, the condition in the example does not have to be satisfied for the Task to be complete. However, if the condition is satisfied, then we can be assured that the Task can be completed. I'm based my interpretation of "sufficient" from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary_and_sufficient_condition#Definitions

I think you may be under the impression that the example says that it is *necessary* to be in the location during the Upkeep Phase. The example doesn't say that. Say the final the location of the Task is the Woods. If it was *necessary* that you spend your Upkeep there in order to complete the Task, then you couldn't complete the Task if you have an encounter that moved you to the street. But if it is *sufficient* that you spend your Upkeep in the Woods, and you don't spend your Upkeep in the Woods, then logically, you still may be able to complete the Task, depending on whether you satisfied the *necessary* conditions.

From page 5 of the rulebook, we know that it is necessary to spend at least part of your Encounters Phase at a location in order to place a Clue token on the Task card. We also know that it is sufficient that you spend your Upkeep at the location in order to place a Clue token on the Task card. If the final location of the Task is the Woods, and you have an encounter that moves you off of the Woods, then you fulfilled the necessary condition, but not the sufficient condition. In logic, the sufficient condition need not be fulfilled in order for the statement to be true. However, if you had completed the sufficient condition, you would not need to check to see if you fulfilled the necessary condition, because fulfilling the sufficient condition implies fulfilling the necessary condition. That's why the rule and the example don't contradict each other. (Except for Charity Chase and Newspaper Assignment.)

Captain Logic strikes again!

::laughter::

Avec, I do appreciate your lawyery but honestly I do not think people writing rulebooks base their wording on logic implications and maths ::laughter:: when I read "would have sufficed", I intend "it would be enough for meeting the required condition" and that's all.

Thanks for the responses all.

I played several games this weekend as described and was distinctly underwhelmed. I've pulled the tasks and mission cards from the decks.

My games are with 3 investigators and from what I can tell the game is just hectic enough to discourage any "sightseeing" no matter how enticing the rewards.

It's one thing to pull an item with limited use from a deck, but to pull one with practically NO use HURTS where every item counts.

I'll probably rethink this action if I ever get a larger gaming group going.

My last game I actually won by closing with 3 investigators which I thought patently impossible! Two lucky Otherworld encounters to autoclose gates and a copy of De Vermis Mysteries netted us 3 tokens. Shortest game ever: 1 hour 2 minutes.

A few questions came up during my games:

1) Leo Anderson starts with an ally. From the 11 aliies of the game I ruled that he could go through the deck and choose one - after all thematically he's an expedition leader right? Pulled Professor Rice which meant that all 11 locations had two clue tokens at the start of the game. Subsequently found that ally selection is supposed to be random. Is this true? If so I'm guessing this is the case for all unless the ally is described by name correct?

2) Described in another thread - may an investigator choose to do nothing after exploring a gate and coming out the other side? In which case would he have to have a location encounter?

3) What if the investigator moves off the gate after exploring and returning (becuase the gate is a high frequency and he lacks the clues to seal). The gate just sits there for exploration by anyone correct?

4) Final battle with AO - Ithaqua. Please confirm the sequence: 1) Discard retainers & bank loans. 2) Discard spells/items that state "Discard when AO awakens" 3) Start of battle: declare item, roll one die for it - discard item on failure. 4) After all investigators have rolled, 1st upkeep/trading. 5) Investigators each attack using combat check vs modifier on card. No horror check required (never for AOs unless specified). 6) Ithaqua attacks - Investigators each make a fight check (gets harder every round) and loses 2 stamina on failure. 7) Pass first player token. 8) Return to step 4.

5) Start of battle action by the AO takes place before the first upkeep in final combat - correct?

6) In the example above how would I use clue tokens? Assuming my combat check allows me to roll 2 dice and I get one success. I'm guessing I can use a clue to buy another roll. Could I use all of my clue tokens to buy additional rolls to get beyond the number of dice allowed to me in the initial check (in this instance 2) even if the rolls were ALREADY successful?

Nameless1 said:

1. if the ally is in the "random possessions" part, it's intended to be random, like for charlie cane and leo anderson. when it's in fixed possessions, like on ashcan pete, then it's not randomly picked.

2. the location does not exist when there is a gate there. so if you have an explored token, you cannot take a location cardor do the special encounter at that location, you have to either try to close, try to seal or just do nothing.

3. not sure what you mean.. but if you do not close/seal the gate, it's still open for anyone. and if you have explored it, moving off the gate will remove that token, so when you return you get drawn in again.

4. seems ok. on 3) you do not have to roll for items that cannot be stolen/lost (like the deputy's gun).

5. yes.

6. you can use none, some or all your clue tokens on all skill checks. it doesn't matter how many dice you would get to roll, you can always add.

Taurmindo is right, but let me clarify:

3) The "explored" token is associated with the investigator who explored it, and not with the gate itself. If the investigator moves off the gate, he loses the explored token. If another investigator wants to come in and close the gate, he will not have an explored token and so must enter the gate first (as normal).

4) Right, for his start of battle ability you roll a die for each item: you don't roll a single die per investigator and either lose all items and keep all items. Each investigator will lose some of his items (usually the useful ones ).

6) Clue tokens can be spent for any skill check . Against Ithaqua, this means either the combat check to attack him, or the fight check to defend yourself against the stamina loss. It could also mean a spell check if you're trying to cast a combat spell.

Each clue lets you roll one die, not all dice on the check. It is possible that this one die will be a failure, and you may have to consider spending more clues to try to get another success.

For Ithaqua's start of battle ability, these rolls are not for skill checks , so you can't spend clues or re-roll them or add dice to them in any way. A failure is a failure here, so I hope that it wasn't rolled against your best weapon...

Nameless1 said:

Strategically, this is an incorrect way of looking at the tasks and missions. For one thing, a few of them do have limited utility (very limited), but here's a more important thing about them, they're cheap. When you're trying to get a certain something in the unique item deck (Elder Sign or King in Yellow), or something in the common item deck (less common), you can purchase one of those to prevent yourself from losing all your money shopping on items you don't need (i.e. weapons are nice, but not necessary once you have a few, and they can always wait a bit before being acquired, whereas clues and clue equivalents are essential to get as quickly as possible).

Julia said:

This is an interesting conversation because that's what I mean by "sufficed" also. If you do it, it's enough to satisfy the condition. But you don't do it, it doesn't mean you don't satisfy the condition. It's like, if a number is divisible by four, we know it's even. But that doesn't mean that a number has to be divisible by four in order to be even. In the abstract, we can say, if X, then Z. It doesn't mean that if X is absent then Z is not true. Similarly, say that we know if an investigator is on a location during Upkeep, he can put a Clue token on a Task. That doesn't mean that if the investigator is not on the location during Upkeep, he can't put the Clue token on the Task. That's a pretty standard use of the word "sufficed." I wouldn't be surprised if the game designers meant exactly what they said when they created the example, at least on some level. They could have been clearer, but maybe they like giving geeks something to talk about.

Tibs said:

3) Sure. That I get.

4) Lost everything! Shotgun, wither spell, golden sword...

6) Got the distinction between checks & other rolls.

Avi_dreader said:

I know that some advocate farming the deck as a strategy but the odds of getting a desired item are remote with the base + DH decks mixed it seems and I'm guessing even worse with the addition of further expansions. I've never actually considered having to spend money as a liability or "losing money" to be honest - usually: the items are cheap stuff you can readily buy, stuff that's pretty good that you can get, or REALLY good stuff that's JUST beyond your price range.

Besides I was thinking more in terms of the "loot monsters" like Tcho-Tcho and Mi-Go. It's disheartening to go through a battle to get something that's worth $0. So besides getting a free pass when shopping and junk to dump when insane/unconscious/sacrifice/facing the Rat-Thing, I'm still not sure if these can be useful.

Well then you're good to go. Hope Ithaqua's low modifier, short doom track, and identical attack/defense stat will ease the pain a bit.

Tibs said:

Lost to him! Twice!

Each time he awoke. What was really vexing was that in one game for want of ONE success we lost. Why Sister Mary, why?

I thought we had a strategy down after beating Azathoth and Nyar but the icy winds ability of Ithaqua really cramps our playing style.