I'm not complaining. I think it's great that Astartes are horrifically good, even when unarmed. Although I wouldn't call the combat blade a 'knife' really, as I think that the stats are more in line with swords from the other games.

[i'd rather go against the martial arts master myself. Because he's not going to do any more to you than he wants to (and he probably doesn't want to kill you and go to jail for 15 years), whereas the punk with the knife stands a good chance murdering you by accident!]

But Space marine unarmed hit can pierce frigin TERMINATOR armour with ease....

boruta666 said:

1) Not "pierce", more like "hurt through".

2) Abstraction, etc, etc. If it makes you feel sad, you can rule that Armour Points not nulled by Penetration are doubled, thus making Unarmed inefficient against Termies.

3) Does that particular case happen so often?

i am pretty pleased with the rules changes. I would never have written those 20+ pages of house rules if we had those weapon stats right at the beginning.

The reason for the "1W10" is simple: You don't want extremes. W10+9 (+11 with mighty shot) results in no more than 21 pen 4 damage. You won't kill your Nurgle Demon Prince (Toughness 18 Armor 12) with Bolter or Heavy Bolter Fire that way. Neither will you waste the Broodlord or Hive Tyrant with a single Heavy Bolter Volley. There is special Equipment for that - use it

Some suggestions:

1. The Combat Shotgun is broken - give it pen 0 like the original. Probably an error.

2. Leave the Bolters Fire Rate if you don't like it. Or nerv the Plasma Guns Fire Rate. This would result in optional Suppressive Fire and an edge to the plasma rifle in horde combat or against weak opponents. Weapon choice should be made tactically - no weapon should simply be "better".

3. One magazin Kraken rounds is as costly as some advanced weapons. Thats rubbish - just make the ammo cheaper, that gives the tactical with bolter more options and more versatility. Or state that the Marine has "enough kraken rounds" for the points.

4. Increase Damage on the Meltas, they are broken when compared to plasma. A Plasma Cannon does more Damage (overcharge) with better burst radius and better range than a Multi-Melter.

5. Restrict Thunder Hammers and Storm Bolters to Marines wearing Terminator armor. Otherwise all Marines will use them in the mid- to endgame.

6. Deploying/Stowing away Heavy Weapons takes time, Marines wielding them suffer penalties to Agility (dodge less, move slower). This encourages Tacticals to wield Basic weapons and might give the Heavies the right feel back.

7. Nerv those bulkhead shears and breaching augur: I use the old stats (new ones are ok too) but do not add Strength Bonus. You don't want all Marines walking around with these monstrosities, just doesn't feel right.

8. Make those Chapters in RoB better. They genuinely suck when compared to the original ones.

My House Rules:

Melta Quality: +6 AP in short range - but more damage overall (see below)

Assault Quality: You may combine a Full Move with an Attack with Pistols, Flamers, Melta Guns, Ripper Guns and the like, Talents scale accordingly.

Tankbuster: Some Weapons are just better at killing Armor...

Roll Armor: No "auxiliary Toughness" - roll W10 under/equal to the modified armor value as an armor save. That way hits that do penetrate hurt more (not those "1,2,1,1,2,0,0 DMG added together any more" because damage is reduced by armor), you need not roll damage if the save is made (makes for a faster game) and your inquisitor with Best Craftsmanship Powerarmor but only 22 Toughness may survice the day Pretty extreme but we got good results.

Stats:

Bolters 2W10+2 Pen 4 S/2/4 or S/3, Hvy Bolter 2W10+5 Pen 5 -/-/10

Assault Cannon 3W10+5 Pen 6 -/-/10 Storm, Unreliable

Plasma 3W10+6 Pen 10, overheats, volatile S/2 or S/-

Melter 4W10+8 Pen 12, Multi Melter better S/-

Lascannon 5W10+10 Pen 14

just to name a few. Probably obsolete with the errata - they could be better balanced.

What do you think of those changes?

I'd suggest the following levels of damage for Astartes weapons. With these stats the columns on the right show the chances of destroying in one round, doing zero damage to and the average number of rounds to kill a Chaos Space Marine and Dreadnought. It is based on a marine with BS50, short range and +10 to BS from some source.

It gives weapons a variety of functions but stops any one weapon from being completely useless. Anyway, this is a rough draft which I might refine at some point.

boruta666 said:

Well... only about 30ish% of the time they can harm whatever is inside it. Just change the rules so that marine unarmed assaults are still Primative and the problem is solved.

Jodelmarine said:

Specialist ammo is already massively good value. I wouldn't make it cheaper. A couple of types are a bit rubbish, but Kraken rounds (which have no downsides) and Hellfire are worth every single point of Req. Witchbolts are brilliant demon killers and underpriced in that role. And if you make the ammo unlimited, what's to stop the Tac passing it around?

If anything needs a price break it's grenades. They're massively overpriced for single items. For three to five it might be worth it, but how often do you see them used at their current price?

You realise that melta doubles Pen at close range? Additionally, they really probably shouldn't have the 'assault' quality, as they were always 'fire or move' weapons. That was their downside: That you can't run around firing them. Remember that the melta is AMAZING against armour, and that's its strength. It's also a great utility weapon for cutting holes in stuff.

Thunder hammers are broken. They need a re-stat, badly. Storm bolters aren't any more. They're fine, and comparable with plasma and melta. Only allowing them with terminator armour directly contradicts canon, and seems a bit harsh, given that they're not that great any more.

Siranui said:

we are talking about rules RAW with optional damage values friend, to your knowledge my group have completely moved to GURPS (3ed with compendium) with DeathWatch as in our opinion original game mechanic dont fit space marine level of power.

The problem with your new stats Shaun is that they just exacerbate the problem DW has with Astartes Bolt Weapons. By giving everything more D10’s and making them more dangerous, you’re just making adversaries even less dangerous than they already are. The problems with Bolters were the too high rate of fire (never should have had Full-Auto to start with) and their extra D10. This errata solves this problem for the most part, even if everything isn’t 100% perfect (like the Combi-Weapons and Storm Bolter’s Rates of Fire).

Bolters need to become less powerful, not everything else become more powerful to compensate.

We’ve been using a lot of these new stats for a while now, the difference they make to the fun of the game is mindboggling. I never want to do back to 2D10 for Bolters. I never want to go back to 10-shot Heavy Bolters that can rip a Hive Tyrant in half in a single turn.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

I'm still tweaking some of the stats, but in general I've kept the RoF of the original bolters with the new damage values. For the HB, I compromised and made its RoF -/-/8; this gives it twice the burst of a regular Bolter. That's a lot of shots, sure, but often plenty will just go to waste. In the case of the Hive Tyrant, the HB needs to get at least an 9 on a Tearing 1d10 to even scratch it (not counting any bonuses from Talents, special ammo, or other boosts). With 120 Wounds and a reduced RF chance with all of the bolters, I don't see a Hive Tyrant going down in one round unless all of the stars align or a ton of RFs are rolled in a row, in which I say the KT has earned its kill. Even using Kraken Rounds and having Mighty Shot, the Hive Tyrant should still have plenty of Wounds after a full burst.

Jodelmarine said:

But I do want extremes! But only if a player rolls very well. That's why I use the house rule of re-rolling all 10s on RF. Which btw has become even more viable with reduced dices.

If a Bolter or HB damage roll ends up 10, 10, 4 (Tearing), then I want the player to be able to add 2d10 to damage for that shot. It represents a critically well placed shot. If the rest of the normal hits doesn't do much damage against a Hive Tyrant, I am fine with that.

Jodelmarine said:

Most likely. Shotguns are AP - after all.

Jodelmarine said:

It actually should but only at the appropriate req cost. Anyway, I'd keep the Bolter ROF.

Jodelmarine said:

15 is expensive but still a frequent choice for Marines. And for the Bolt Pistol it only costs 8. Tacticals get one clip of ammo free each mission, so no problem there.

Jodelmarine said:

Melta just needs the original +d10 damage on Short Range, as well as the double Pen. I am actually thinking of this rule for melta:

On Short range melta does:
- 1d10 extra damage and
- doubles AP or halfs enemy AV, whichever is greater.

That way even Land Raider don't feel comfortable in a MMs presence.

Jodelmarine said:

Thunder Hammers are OP and need to be scaled down. I'm fine with Storm Bolters becoming a standard choice (instead of the bolter) at higher ranks. Though I suspect combi-meltas remain an alternative. The problem is that melta right now isn't good enough to destroy tanks with one shot.

Jodelmarine said:

Yeah sure, it's a point, a simple solution would be to disallow dodge.

But how do you handle suspensors then?

Jodelmarine said:

Or give substantial to-hit penalties. You got a point.

Jodelmarine said:

Which suck? Surely not the Crimson Fists, although they could have used full chapter rules. Imperial Fists Solo Mode ability is awesome: unless the enemy fields Tau Railguns, you can take the risk of shooting things out.

Jodelmarine said:

What do you make of the Krak missile? It obliterates Terminators but doesn't do much against Rhino Front Armour, doesn't feel right. I feel like we need an Armour Piercing trait. You know in Cyberpunk RPG, AP weapons half the enemy armour. I think this might be necessary here too because of the wide differences in AV from AV 8 of Power Armour to AV 45 to 50 of main battle tanks. Halving it would reduce this wide range significantly, allowing for better callibration of weapon damage.

Let's say Krak missile has such a quality. Then Terminators had AV 7 (let's say +10 soak by marine Toughness), Rhino Front 16. If the missile would do its originalk 4d10+6 on top of it, you'd have 11 damage against and 12 against Rhinos. Not quite precise but much better.

4d10+2 would also do. The many dice give the chance to penetrate and to really do significant damage while the normally damage output should be not too threatening.

Alex

H.B.M.C. said:

Now we come to the point, the most important thing is what YOU want!

For me this discussion becomes more like the attempt to direct a revolution. There are the Rules as they were printed on paper and there is a majority of players who don't have to say anything on this matter because the system works fine for them. Why should someone bother to participate in a revolution if he is satisfied with the way things are?

Now we have this radical overthrow (which wasn`t meant to be an overthrow in the first place but only optional rules) and the only players who have to say something on this matter are a minority who don't want to stick with the old ways and want to steer the revolution in a direction they desire. This minority is divided into 2 fractions. The radicalists who want a complete replacement for all future releases and those who simply seek a compromise between the old ways and the new. If history has told us something than that radicalism is always the donwfall of a working system!

If we use the optional Rules as they are we have to change everything else for the sake of balancing a few Weapons including, and this is the most part I'm worried about, the last bit of compatibility with RT and DH. Instead of twisting a lot of rules until the system is running again they could simply publish some alternate stats for the few adversaries in the rulebook. I hope Mark of Xenos took this way in upping the bad instead of nerfing the good.

In the end it's not about what a minority WANTS but what WORKS OUT for all!

1. Upping Bad Guys!

2. Upping Damage for Plasma and Meltas!

3. Leaving Bolters as they are (except for HB)!

Kain McDogal said:

Now it comes to what YOU want!

If history has taught us something, it's that escalation is the downfall of EVERYTHING. And this, my good sir, is escalation.

Then again, that's my point of view, and I must surely be part of a very tiny minority, where the vast majority is absolutely fine with the rules as they are, and just don't see the point in bringing it out.

Well let me tell you something, there is no such thing as a majority when it comes to RPGs, and there is no such thing as a "silent majority" anyway. So don't bother trying to say that those who disliked the previous errata bolters have to be a minority of angry, unsatisfied players. We may not be.

The thing is, in my mind, the errataed weapons do not require you to balance anything (except the Thunder Hammer, but that's another discussion). It just requires your players to learn and play a bit more tactically, and to change weapons sometime, letting the good ol' HB ou bolter resting at the Armory to take some heavier sh*t. And to many of us "minority angry no-good players", this is part of the fun in the game.

Nobody tells you you HAVE to use these new weapons stats. If you're fine with Devs mincing out Hive Tyrants in one Full Auto Burst, I don't give the slightest crap about it. But don't go ahead telling me that I must use the old weapon stats either!

I think the real problem lays in how the game is played. From what I hear it's always hive tyrant here hive tyrant there and I'm wondering how you guys play this ? Is it like DoW 2 where you have a last boss alone in a room or something ? Because the way we play you never gonna face him alone. He's escorted by at least 2 carni and 100s of genestealers, that's how it is. You never face a handfull of genestealers, you face thousands. As for Chaos Marines, the least you are going to encounter is a full 10 men squad lead by a champion or something along the line because THAT's how it is.

I'm starting to get the feeling of Halo gameplay, or any fps for that matter, from some of the complain I hear about the bolter issue (and not to mention bolter shouldn't be full auto LOL). My only complain with the system is that some weapons (melta, plasma, and Tau) should do more dmg/pen. Heck a genestealer should reap a termi to shreads in melee if space hulk taught us anything.

Genestealers ARE a pain in the ass in melee. Either you're using the weakest source there is, or your GM really has bad rolls.

But HT + 2 'fexes + 100s of Stealers? Now that's from one extreme to the other...

This is even crazier than Movie Marines.

Stormast said:

As a matter of fact I have no problem with a Dev mincing a Hive Tyrant which was placed in the open without support by a stupid GM in one Full Auto Burst, my problem is that you couldn't knock out any Heavy Armor because there are no dedicated AT-Weapons in the game and this hasn't changed with the Optional Rules (except for the Thunder Hammer)!

Of course the baddies need those AT-Weapons, too.

And by the way, who in the world said, that the TT should be the only reference? The title of this RPG is "Deathwatch" and not "Space Marines"!

By the way just in reference to all the complaints that a multi melta cant one shot a land raider, surely one "shot" in TT is not actually one pull of the trigger. it cant be. otherwise table top battles last 20-30 seconds in real time and everyone can only pull their trigger a maximum of 6 times in the battle. it seems to me that 3-4 DW multimelta shots can destroy a land raider, and that seems about right for the amount of shots required for a TT turn. even if 4 DW rounds is 1 TT turn that still means a TT game lasts 2 minutes tops. This is what makes it even more ridiculous that a heavy bolter can 1shot a hive tyrant in DW. Because one guy with a heavy bolter and good enough cover like a bunker will kill a whole tyranid army in 2 minutes in DW

and if you just want to say you want a weapon capable of taking out a Land Raider and you arent using tabletop as a reference. then a Land Raider is 72 tonnes of super heavy armour, a personnel mounted weapon SHOULDN'T be able to take that out in one shot. you wanna take it out in one shot then use the RoB rules to call in air strikes, a thunderhawk gunship, some kind of fire support

Kain McDogal said:

Power Armour is supposed to stop bolt rounds, which is what Vengeance bolt rounds are for.

And claiming that one's own view is of the majority and that those who dissent are in the minority is an easily made claim that bears no credibility all by itself, I'm afraid.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I've never pointed out that I'm part of the majority. I'm one of the minority who seeks a compromise.

The silent majority (yes it exist, because people are lazy and won't stand up for something they already have) simply adjusts their games to the way they want.

We (the minority) try to force the Game Developer to publish what we want. There is nothing wrong with that, but it would be foolish for the developers to only listen to us and ignore the silent majority because this is where their money comes from.

How many people wouldn't have bought DW if the Weapon stats for their beloved SM in Final Sanction would have been like the one in the Optional Rules?

Kain McDogal said:

And how do you do that? All you can is try to argue for your point of view. And if it's not convincing, then it ain't.

Kain McDogal said:

Anybody can make any claim about a so-called silent majority though.

Kain McDogal said:

About everyone I'd say.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Maybe not quite everyone, but I agree that I dont know anyone who bought a copy of the book who wasn't like "OMG a game where you get to play space marines, I'm so gonna buy this" from about the moment it was announced. I don't think Final Sanction will have convinced many people to buy this game,

Narkasis Broon said:

"OMG a game where you get to play space marines, I'm so gonna buy this"

Exactly.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I wonder what this people might think now. Maybe

"OMG a game where Space Marines are transformed into little whimps with popguns, because some people want to have fun with one Hive Tyrant for the whole evening"

Kain McDogal said:

That hasn't been my overall impression. The game has merely moved a bit more towards tabletop marines. You call it revolutionary, I see it as a necessary reform that has been overcompensating by a notch.

Alex

It's all a matter of taste in the end. What I loved about DW right from the first session of Final Sanction was the sheer scale the marines operated on and the damage they do is a big part of that. I've played lots of games at high power levels and they tend to get bogged down, but DW zips along even as you're taking out platoons of foes and incredibly powerful enemies. My personal feeling is that if a marine points his bolter at you then you'd better be scared unless you're insanely powerful. Marines aren't invincible by any measure, but they can deal sufficient damage to face almost any opponent... they more dangerous the opponent the more tactical they have to be in engaging them, but they can still do it.

For me the optional errata strips away that part of the game so I'll probably not be using it, however I'm quite certain those of you who like different play styles will still have plenty of fun using it.